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Ok, I've been reading a lot about these boats, and my understanding is that the Vacationer is a scaled up Weekender, and I have gathered that they handle similarly.

My reading has lead me to an idea of what I'm getting myself into handling-wise and I'd like to discuss it to refine my understanding. If the two boats do handle differently, I'd be very interested in knowing how.

The Weekender is apparently a fairly stable and docile sailer, but that comes at a price.

*Fair amount of weather helm. (I'm not sure what causes this)
*Reduced pointing ability due to lack of centerboard, or daggerboard. This does make it easier to build, and the shape of the full keel is more forgiving of building variances than a foil might be.
*The lack of a centerboard or daggerboard becomes more pronounced in high winds.
*Underpowered for it's size/weight which is probably intentional since it's aimed at the novice builder/sailor
*Reasonably stable as long as it's not abused, but could be difficult to right solo in the event of a capsize

Am I missing points?

I found the modifications shown on this site to be fascinating. http://www.timtone.com/tt/ttphotos/SailingSitemap.htm Has anyone tried to replicate them? I'm not sure I'm enough of a sailor to notice, but I'm curious.

Messing-about.com is a great resource, but I think there might be a wee bit of a bias towards the B&B designs there. I expect those are great boats, but I like the looks of the Weekender better although I would hesitate to say so on that forum. Maybe that just underscores my novice status as a sailor, but I'm picking my project on aesthetics. That is why the mods at the timtone.com site are intriguing to me, as he maintained the look of the boat and improved performance (allegedly).

Thank you for any and all responses.
Bill

Quote:The Weekender is apparently a fairly stable and docile sailer, but that comes at a price.

*Fair amount of weather helm. (I'm not sure what causes this)
*Reduced pointing ability due to lack of centerboard, or daggerboard. This does make it easier to build, and the shape of the full keel is more forgiving of building variances than a foil might be.
*The lack of a centerboard or daggerboard becomes more pronounced in high winds.
*Underpowered for it's size/weight which is probably intentional since it's aimed at the novice builder/sailor
*Reasonably stable as long as it's not abused, but could be difficult to right solo in the event of a capsize

Thank you for any and all responses.
Bill

Bill, I'll take a stab at some of your points - I have been sailing my Weekender for about 7 1/2 years so I do know a bit about it's sailing and handling characteristics.

1. Weather helm - lots of folks claim that the weekender has a lot of weather helm. Many cite rudder/rudder box breakage as evidence. While I cannot speak for their weekenders, mine only evidences significant weather helm when I am over sheeted or over canvassed (exactly where you would want a bit of weather helm to reduce the possibility of a knockdown). If you use the gaff halyard to flatten the sail, you can dramatically reduce weather helm and control issuse as the wind pipes up.

2. Pointing/tacking - HEEL THE BOAT! The hard chine will really make the boat point if you give it a chance. I usually sit on the lee side to get the boat to heel and allow the chine to bite. If you don't have a 5 degree or better heel, she will not point well. Tacking the weekender is easy once you figure it out - release the jib, sheet in the main, put the wheel over and she comes about smartly.

3. Lack of centerboard - not an issue. The original weekender design had one but it was removed in later pland (Often called a weekender II) because it was not needed.

4. Underpowered - Perhaps if you want to really push things but my weekender will really get moving in 5kts of wind.

5. Stable & hard to right - Once you get a feel for the boat you will realize that it is very stable under sail in more than 3 kts of wind. Up to about 15, she is quite controllable with the standard rig. Beyond that, I watch from the yacht club. If you get it full of water, get it to shore and bail. I have never come close to a knockdown and have not had water over the rail - others sail that way but I do not.

This is not a perfect boat (I haven't found it yet) but is is a competent small boat that will sail just fine once you figure out its quirks. I also have a Catalina 22 and a Macgergor 19 - all 3 sail just fine when you learn the boat and how to handle it but if you read the published info, you would believe that the weekender and the mac don't sail well. They do if you just learn the boat.

I'll let others tell you about the Vacationer. I hope you enjoy your journer into sailing.

Though Weekender and Vacationer have a strong "family" resemblance, they are different boats, not just a scaled up set of sisters.

Most reports of excessive weather helm are skipper or equipment related on these boats. This is partly the general inexperience of most of the skippers with sailing and particularly with a gaffer. Poorly shaped home made sails will cause excessive weather helm, so will worn out baggy sails, again particularly true on a gaffer. As has been pointed out, over sheeting and not tucking in a reef to suit conditions are points to ponder. A gaffer will ask you to reef sooner then a normally proportioned Bermudian of similar scale. This is a function of the amount of area that is up in the rig, which "twists off" as wind strengths increase. This extra belly, high up in the mainsail causes the helm pressure to increase, so you have to reef sooner. The usual rule is, if you think you should reef, you should have already on a gaffer.

I've advocated this keel modification to Weekenders and Vacationers for a number of years. Coupled with an appendage (centerboard, daggerboard or leeboards) you'll make considerable performance gains. Handling and general maneuverability will be crisper and much more responsive. Not that Weekender isn't reasonably responsive, it is, but nothing like it can be, nor like a modern skiff or dinghy, which this set of changes can mimic. You'll also point higher, tack faster and through tighter angles. Short tacking is also greatly improved and the dramatic reduction in leeward skidding alone makes it worth the effort, in my way of thinking.

Everything is more pronounced in higher wind strengths, especially the screams from your crew.

She's got a fairly healthy SA/D (the Sail Area/Displacement ratio is a measure of light air ability), but the hull could easily handle more. This would put novice sailors at a disadvantage while learning, but increasing headsail area once you've gotten a feel for things is a wise investment after you've got a handle on her.

A lightly built Weekender would be a troublesome thing to right after a capsize, though air chambers and/or floatation could be helpful. If you let her "settle" a few minutes as she takes on water, partly flooding, she'll be easier to right, but there is a point of no return with this tactic.

Compared to an actual dory, which many feel she's patterned after, she pretty stable. The hull form is more closely related to a skiff then a dory and in this regard she would be considered more tender then most. As small boats go, she's about in the middle. If you've got some high performance dinghy experience, she'll seem like a slug and rock solid under foot. If your experience is on bigger, more wholesome craft, then she'll feel "tippy". To the novice this is purely a "trust" issue. Eventually you'll trust she's not going to dump you in the wet stuff and get use to her motion underway and under foot, as you move around inside the boat.

The B&B site is a good one, with many fine, helpful folks. You'll do well to keep visiting. Frank is the administrator over there and he's built a Weekender, so the bias shouldn't be taken personally. Naturally, the B&B sections do focus on Graham's designs, but they welcome the Stevenson efforts as well as other designers too.

Graham's designs have more performance potential and are more function oriented then style. Being taped seam construction, they also differ from the approach the Stevenson designs take. Mike Stevenson recently wondered (over at the B&B site) if anyone has attempted a taped seam version of Weekender. I've often advocated this adjustment to the plans as well. This "modernization" of the build method would lighten her up and make her less prone to some of the more common issues that many have had.

Since this is your first build, you should concentrate on building the boat as well as you can, trying not to fall victim to the novice's tendency of over building. With a season or two of sailing under your keel, you can consider some changes, like an over lapping jib, maybe a topsail, converting to tiller steering, or cut down keel/centerboard/daggerboard arrangement, etc. As a beginner, you'll never notice the difference if you haven't first started with a "base line" from which you can make comparisons.

Go for it, they're fun, addictive and the rewards can't be sufficiently described in words, in spite of my well known verbosity attempting such.

Paul, you one again show your intimate prowess in the world we all have succumb to. My only curiosity is in the last paragraph. I humbly admit to being a novice at best in the sailing world. Having owned/sailed a snark, Hobie, Mac 25, then a Soverel 36. I cannot imagine who decided to put in a "Steering wheel" in a sail boat. Perhaps its only me, but a tiller is the only way to go. I personally cannot imagine, from personal experience, anything but a tiller for a more "intimate" relationship betweeen a man/ woman, ok, "person's" feel of their vessel and the sailing environment. I/ we all owe a great deal of gratitude, in my opinion, to you Paul for your insight/ input into our sailing paradigm. Even with just yours and my communication for my own personal "applications" I am in your debt. Just in my balsa model "overbuilding" has already become an issue. I want to personally thank you for your tireless effort to help my "dummy" ways. I will eventually overcome and complete my Vacationer. Thanks to you , I hope to not build the "perfect" plywood submarine!

capnpablo

There's a lot of good information here to digest. Maybe I should touch on what I've done that's pertinent to the tasks at hand.

Building wise I've been working with wood, tools, and various mechanical bits for about 25 years or so. I haven't built a boat, but I've done plenty of other projects, from tree houses, to home remodels, and fiddly-bit woodworking projects.

Sailing wise I'm what I would call a knowledgeable novice thanks to a habitual need to study up on any project I'm considering undertaking. I understand the basic science behind the operation of the sail and the boat, but I lack the experience to know the nuances of sail shape, and ship handling. I have about 16 hours or so at the tiller of my little Sea Snark and compared to it I doubt I will consider anything tender. :-D My six year-old can heel it over with ease. I'm starting to learn it's idiosyncrasies and limitations. It's pretty much the bare essentials as there's no real way to adjust sail shape, reef, or any of that other fancy stuff. With it you have the main sheet, the tiller, and the daggerboard if you want to mess with it. It's been a good introduction to sailing. It's either a measure of my cautious nature, luck, or raw natural talent for sailing, but I have yet to put the Sea Snark over and into the drink. My personal vote is luck and caution. :-)

Quote:2. Pointing/tacking - HEEL THE BOAT! The hard chine will really make the boat point if you give it a chance. I usually sit on the lee side to get the boat to heel and allow the chine to bite. If you don't have a 5 degree or better heel, she will not point well. Tacking the weekender is easy once you figure it out - release the jib, sheet in the main, put the wheel over and she comes about smartly.

I read this in another post and it makes perfect sense to me. It's a little counter-intuitive though since your natural inclination is to flatten the heel as much as possible. :-)

Quote:Most reports of excessive weather helm are skipper or equipment related on these boats. This is partly the general inexperience of most of the skippers with sailing and particularly with a gaffer.
<snip>
A gaffer will ask you to reef sooner then a normally proportioned Bermudian of similar scale. This is a function of the amount of area that is up in the rig, which "twists off" as wind strengths increase. This extra belly, high up in the mainsail causes the helm pressure to increase, so you have to reef sooner. The usual rule is, if you think you should reef, you should have already on a gaffer.

So as I wrap my brain around this advice, if I understand it correctly, with the gaff rig, your square sail shape, and mode of suspension will cause it the gaff to twist to leeward as wind speed increases and cause excessive power from the sail due to the extra belly. Similar to flaps on a wing, except it's not a good thing. On a Bermuda rig, the triangular shape of the sail would make it more forgiving under the same wind conditions. Not having sailed a Bermuda rig I have no basis of comparison there. :-) The rule of thumb being, when in doubt, reef the main.

Upon further thought this represents an interesting conundrum. If you're on a beam reach under a brisk wind, the apparent wind will shift towards the bow and increase in speed. Assuming you bring the sheet in to keep your heading, could you reach the point where your apparent wind is excessive for a non-reefed main? Kind of an academic point I suppose as you can simply fall off, or ease the main sheet to depower the main and bring your apparent wind down. Still it's fascinating to see the interaction of the boat, the sail, and the wind.

Quote:<snip> keel related discussion

Modifications for the future I think. One of the things I like about the stock design is the ability to beach it without concern for any appendage.

Quote:Everything is more pronounced in higher wind strengths, especially the screams from your crew.

I think I just found a good quote for my signature. That made me chuckle.

Quote:If you've got some high performance dinghy experience, she'll seem like a slug and rock solid under foot. If your experience is on bigger, more wholesome craft, then she'll feel "tippy". To the novice this is purely a "trust" issue.

Compared to the Sea Snark I wouldn't consider anything tender. :-) It makes canoes look stable as an aircraft carrier. Still I know what you mean, I've been on a fair number of boats, from canoes up to 18' triple-pontoon lake barges (and one aircraft carrier) and they all have their quirks and and adjustment period. I've gotten to a comfort point even with the exceptionally tender Sea Snark. :-)

Quote:The B&B site is a good one, with many fine, helpful folks. You'll do well to keep visiting. Frank is the administrator over there and he's built a Weekender, so the bias shouldn't be taken personally. Naturally, the B&B sections do focus on Graham's designs, but they welcome the Stevenson efforts as well as other designers too.

Oh I assure you I didn't take it personally, or even in a bad way. They are a good bunch from what I've seen, and with many many years on the internet I've seen a lot of forums. They've been very friendly and helpful all the way around.

Quote:Graham's designs have more performance potential and are more function oriented then style. Being taped seam construction, they also differ from the approach the Stevenson designs take. Mike Stevenson recently wondered (over at the B&B site) if anyone has attempted a taped seam version of Weekender. I've often advocated this adjustment to the plans as well. This "modernization" of the build method would lighten her up and make her less prone to some of the more common issues that many have had.

Maybe I'm incredibly naive but isn't a taped seam construction simply using something along the lines of "stitch and glue" along the seams rather than attaching to a frame member? This would seem like a simple and easy adjustment, with the aforementioned advantages. I've done some fiberglass work, and bondo work (did I mention I once worked in a body shop?) so maybe I'll tinker with this.

Quote:Since this is your first build, you should concentrate on building the boat as well as you can, trying not to fall victim to the novice's tendency of over building.
<snip>
As a beginner, you'll never notice the difference if you haven't first started with a "base line" from which you can make comparisons.

Here you touch upon my curse. :-) It seems almost nothing I touch gets built exactly "as designed" if I can see some way to tinker with it. Excessively detailed projects are my trademark, although not quite to the OCD extreme. My short list of mods that I can see for Weekender v 1 are:

Tiller steering - Someone around here advocated it, and based on my current sailing, and past power-boat experience it just seems right to me. I have a friend at work that has sailed far more than I will ever dream to (trans-Pac single-hand, plus 4 or so years cruising the East Coast) and he strongly recommends a tiller, so that's on the list.

Cockpit extension - Convert the former steering gear space to more room for the crew.

One thing I am intrigued by is the concept of a removable cabin. I read somewhere that the original Weekender prototype had a removable cabin for more passenger room but it was left off since they didn't use it, and it made it harder to build. I'll have to do a prototype or a model first though.

Thanks again for the input guys. Even if I never actually get one built this has been very educational. I went over to Konrad's tonight and admired his Vacationer for about an hour. Beautiful boat. It does seem like more than I want so I am more firmly in the Weekender camp, although that may change once I go check out Arlen's in-progress Weekender. He says it's a small boat, but I think it may just be that he's tall. I don't have that problem. :-D

Ok I'm going to post this and pray it's not too incoherent. It's almost 0200 for me and I have a bad habit of rambling when I'm tired.

Bill

Quote:

Paul Riccelli Wrote:Most reports of excessive weather helm are skipper or equipment related on these boats. This is partly the general inexperience of most of the skippers with sailing and particularly with a gaffer.
<snip>
A gaffer will ask you to reef sooner then a normally proportioned Bermudian of similar scale. This is a function of the amount of area that is up in the rig, which "twists off" as wind strengths increase. This extra belly, high up in the mainsail causes the helm pressure to increase, so you have to reef sooner. The usual rule is, if you think you should reef, you should have already on a gaffer.

So as I wrap my brain around this advice, if I understand it correctly, with the gaff rig, your square sail shape, and mode of suspension will cause it the gaff to twist to leeward as wind speed increases and cause excessive power from the sail due to the extra belly. Similar to flaps on a wing, except it's not a good thing. On a Bermuda rig, the triangular shape of the sail would make it more forgiving under the same wind conditions. Not having sailed a Bermuda rig I have no basis of comparison there. :-) The rule of thumb being, when in doubt, reef the main.

I've been thinking about this more and I could see how not only would the increasing winds cause the gaff to swing leeward, but they would also belly out the sail more as the boom raises. I see this a lot on strong gusts with my lateen rigged Snark.

Thanks again, this is being most helpful.

Bill

You seem to be going about the research right here Bill. What it comes down to is there is no perfect boat, some are better at one things, some are better at other things. The Weekender I just finished is a perfect camp cruiser for one or two used as intended. If carrying more people, then maybe the no cabin option or a different design is the "correct" choice. I guess for me, the Weekender is perfect, for someone else needs, it could be rubbish. This goes for most designs really except a few classics I suppose.

Be careful what you read because people do tend to compare one design to something else that may not be relevant to your needs. And build a boat you love to look at on the water, anything else you won't like no matter how perfect it handles.

Ryerson, I'm usually very careful not to make direct comparisons between different boats, as there generally can't be a direct correlation between the two unless they are "rule" boats. Even in the case of two very similar craft, designed around the same rule, they'll have many different approaches to the dozens of conflicting issues that make boats work.

The Bermudian rig has "wash out" built into the top of the sail, much like the foil sections used on the end of aircraft wings. This intentionally changes the angle of incidence at the top of the Bermudian sail, so you can maintain good sail shape in building wind strengths. Coupled with boom vangs, Cunningham's and other controls, just unheard of on a gaffer, make this rig, much less prone to shape changes on different points of sail and stiffer air. A gaff vang can help a lot in stiff wind.

I have a couple of designs and have sailed several where the apparent wind is always on the beam or forward, regardless of the true wind direction. This is a function of several elements, but the basic physics are the sail "sees" so much speed across it's low pressure side that it thinks it's always going to windward, unless the boat is on a dead run in very light air. I've also sailed some pretty hairy dinghies and a few foil borne boats that took tender to new heights. As a kid I crewed a 30' boat that could barely hold it's rig aloft without a crew to balance her. It had hiking boards that several would clamor out on, many feet to windward, just to keep it upright. Capsizes were very common and regularly experienced by all, but they were fast buggers if you could keep them on their feet.

Bill, over sheeting is a common novice sailor problem, which leads one to think it could be something else. Learn to sail by the "telltales" on your sails and the shape of the seams, of course compared to a speedo. The little "cheat sheet" that comes with the telltales will provide you with the information on how to read them. On a gaffer, trim until the windward telltale is just slightly dancing. Some boats will want a touch more, others slightly less movement in the windward tale. A Bermudian will be very close with both tales streaming aft, with the windward side just barely moving. Generally a gaffer wants you to ease the sheet more then a Bermudian on the same point of sail, because of the way they're shaped.

I've long advocated the tiller upgrade. It serves two basic functions over the wheel. First, it permits you to move forward in the cockpit so you can trim the boat better. Sitting very close to the stern of a Weekender causes it's "butt" to drag excessive eddies along with it, which slow her down and decrease maneuverability. Second, it has unmatched sensitivity, so the skipper can "feel" what the boat wants or it doing. It can also be easily set up with a jib sheet and bungee cord to self steer the boat. This is a handy feature when you have to go below and get another beer out of the cooler or you're tired and will be on the same tack for a while and just want a rest.

The Weekender is small enough and light enough where crew weight makes a huge impact on how the boat performs. If you tie the helm so the rudder is fixed amidship, you can literally steer her by moving around in the boat. If you want to sail closer to the wind, move forward, bare away, move aft. You can find a "happy place" the boat likes and she'll sail a straight course, all by herself.

There's no perfect boat as Richard pointed out. There's no perfect design and my designs are a testament to just that (I've been doing some up dating lately). All boats can tolerate upgrades, design changes, have issues addressed, etc. One key I like to impress is the engineering and hydrodynamic elements should be left pretty much as intended, unless you have experience with such. Something as simple as making a stringer thicker can have a much larger impact on the structure then you can imagine. I know of more then one custom built racer that was "doctored" by a builder and then swore it was the "bad design" that caused it to lose races. One especially famous designer had this happen to an Americas Cup contender, which was soundly beaten in defender trials. It was restored a few decades after this undesirable beginning and the changes to it's entry noted, adjusted to suit the original plans and it went on to whip the transoms off the very boats that kicked it's keel in the AC trials. Fortunately the designer, though quite old at this point, was able to see this and it justified his complaints of the changes made on the lofting floor 30 years earlier. "The old man was right" and considering his reputation, should have been given his due from the outset, which is my whole point.

The very best thing a sailor can do is go sailing. Sail anything and everything you can get on. Each will teach you something and the experience will make you ever so slightly better at sailing (even if it's things "not to do").

Well, I have to chime in here,

Boat preferences are so subjective.... The dude in the link has a beautiful boat, but I couldn't help noticing all the effort he put into the cabin hatch, but why? The cabin is functionless with all that stuff growing out of the floor.

I'm sure cutting down the forefoot improved tacking ability, because what else would impede the boat's ability to tack? All we have here is another set of mods that work well for the specific purpose the specific builder had in mind and nothing else. Frequently I hear a bunch of gripes about some shortcoming the boat has that can all be traced back to a lack of ability to sail or a problem with the build in the first place.

Use the lightest possible lumber for the gear aloft? OF COURSE. It's not a revelation, it's seamanship. OF COURSE the thing sails better with a centreboard, but since you decided to build a boat with a cabin, presumably you wanted to sleep in it at some point, so now where are you going to stow that board?

I am happy that this particular gentleman has made himself happier by modifying his boat. It warms the cockles of my withered heart to see someone truly happy with his sailboat. I however think my boat points pretty good, and I have sailed with lots of ballast in the cabin(5 adults) and don't find it sails any better with ballast, unless by "better" you mean "slower".

The second you finish building the boat, someone will tell you you should have done this or that a different way.

I guess there are some people out there who will buy a cat and then get mad because it won't fetch birds and bring them their slippers. There are also people out there who will build a little inshore camp cruiser that keeps you dry and goes where you point it, and then complain that they didn't win gold in sailing at the olympics with it because it has too much weather helm.

Paul R is right about the wheel. I like my wheel, but if there was one thing about the design of my boat that has given me trouble, it's the fact that my arms are too short to reach the wheel when I'm sitting on the deck beside the splash coamings hiking out to catch a good gust while close-hauled. Humiliatingly, I was passed by Greg's vacationer in a 15 kt wind while close hauled because I couldn't reach the wheel unless I spilled wind and sat back in the cockpit. Greg installed a tiller this spring and there has been no getting along with him since his boat has doubled in speed due to his increased confidence and "feel" for his boat.

Paul, your advice is very well received and always spot on. My comments were only intended to show how a boat is a very personal thing that suits personal needs. What is bad for some is perfect for others, or an informed trade off of one thing to get another that suits.

If going to windward is everything to a sailor, a gaff or similar rig isn't a good choice. Most of us that use these rigs look at two extra tacks to get past that island as just more sailing, not a hinderance.