BYYB Forums

Hi guys,

I have heard mention in several threads of some folks who have made schooner rigs for there Vacationer.

Does anyone have any pics they could share?

Thanks,

Dave G.

Ahoy David,

Stuart Benbow is the shipwright you want to speak with.
Maybe he will see this message and post a few photos.

Don't know of any Vacationers that have been modified to Schooner rigs. The hull design isn't really all that suitable for a schooner rig anyway. Placement of the masts would dramatically interfer with the functionality of what limited space there is already. Trying to get a good mast placement would be a bit of a challenge.

The Weekender that was mofdified to be a schooner rig has since been retrofitted to a standard rig due to inherent stability issues as well as just too small a platform to attempt this kind of a rig.

If this were not a flat bottomed shallow draft design, it might be a lot easier to accomplish.

If a schooner is what you really want then try one of the "Bolger light Schooner' sets of plans out there but be prepared for all kinds of handling issues. http://www.carlsondesign.com/lscooner.html They are flatbottom, shallow draft, but they are on their sides relatively quickly under normal conditions. And there are a lot of lines and crew needed to keep them trimmed correctly. Not for the novice builder or sailor. But with experience they are a blast to sail and fast. Totally open and they need to be.

If you want higher performance on a Vacationer, go to a Lapper instead of a standard jib. It will make a substantial difference in performance.

It was more of a curiosity than actually wanting to build one.

As far as flat bottomed shallow draft rigs not being suitable for a schooner rig I would have to say that boat-designer Tom Colvin would have to beg to differ with you. (www.thomasecolvin.com)

His Gazelle is fairly close to that design being single chined and made out of steel and following a lot of the limitations of plywood unless you enjoy forming compound curves.

That being said I agree with you that a vacationer is a bit on the smalle side for schooner rig I just really wanted to see some pics if they were out there.

Cheers.

Dave G.

Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying that a small craft the length of the Vacationer or even the Weekender couldn't be designed as a Schooner. It is just a question of what is the point? When you get into such small boats, there just isn't enough space and room for you to have a reasonably workable plan that would have any real advantage over a single masted design. Combine the flat bottomed shallow draft design of the Weekender and Vacationer which have been proven to be successful home builder designs that can be built using commonly available materials and novice sailors can learn to handle with a reasonable degree of confidence quite quickly and you have, even with a gaff rig a simple easy to handle and stable small boat.

I've sailed on quite a few schooners, some as small as 30 ft. that have handled quite well. But all of them were deeper draft designs with ballasted keels and open water cruising in mind. All of them quite stable and designed to maximize the attributes of the design as a schooner.

I've also had the pleasure of sailing with 4 others as crew on a Bolger Light Schooner. Flat bottom, shallow draft and fast, but inherently unstable. Not a boat for a novice or the feint of heart. Trying to accomplish the same thing in a 22 ft platform as the Vacationer would in my mind be a most difficult thing to do. But interesting to think about assuredly.

I'm of the opinion, (granted just my own), and certainly open to other ideas and experiences, that the Vacationer is an underpowered, stable and comfortable small design that can be easily built in a reasonable time for a reasonable cost and enjoyed by a small family or even a single handing with a little experience. Certainly trailerable with only a little inconvenience in launching and retrieving with only one person. But a lot more enjoyable outing if two are involved. As to how far one is willing to go with some cosmetic and above the waterline modifications is open to question. Some modifications could add to the performance, others to comfort, and convenience in longer outings. The single easiest modification to add to the performance is going to a larger headsail, such as the Lapper, essentially a 100- 110% Genoa to use in lighter air than the standard jib. But if you are single handing or with a younger crew that is along for the ride rather than helping to handle the sails, then the standard jib on a clubfoot makes the most sense.
They are good light to moderately heavy air boats. They will bring you home and with a degree of comfort, once you learn the characteristics of your particular boat and sailing conditions in your area. And it will keep up with the majority of the production boats in the same size range.

David,

Perhaps my friend Lars Opland's 24' self designed, Loon, is what you are looking for. Your rig of choice of course. We have not yet matched her against, another member of the Alaska Fleet, Jerry's Bolger Light schooner, but I think you might like her speed. The Loon has a wider stern than the light schooner, more open and definitely much more stable.



We have even sailed the Loon off Homer,Ak.

http://byyb.org/cpg143/albums/userpics/1...ality=Full

This is a quick sketch and will not balance over the stock CLP, but with deadwood changes can. There area many hoist options to a schooner, including a square course, but practicality comes to bare in small craft with multi stick (divided) rigs. Though schooners have been designed that are under 23' on deck, the complications of the rig make them rather awkward to handle.

Paul and Barry are correct in that the larger head sail or sails are the way to get the most for the least out of the Vac and Weekender. My boat has the most radical change that I have seen on a Stevenson boat. The tops'l and big head sail are a handfull by singlehanded. She will pull like a team of Belgians; however, strong gusts can get hairy fast! A new skipper wants to stay close to the designed rig until he has many hours on his baot. The 110 125% lappers are the way to go at first if you want more performance.

By the by be careful what we say in front of Mike,,,,he may try it!!! :lol:

Actually, I recall that Peter tried a schooner version of the Vac years ago and ended up burning it. The hull is all wrong below the waterline as PAR indicated and it didn't handle for,.... well you know

http://byyb.org/cpg143/albums/userpics/1...ality=Full

This is a small schooner I designed many years ago. It was built by a local fellow and sailed pretty well. She had a weather helm issue which needed to be fixed. She sailed fine off the wind, but with the board down (it has just two positions) for windward work, the helm got heavier and heavier as you headed up. Clearly not enough lateral plane aft. Rather then lengthen the deadwood, I shortened the rig, which moved the CE forward. The boat balanced much better and got 10 degrees higher into the wind, plus she retained her maneuverability with the fin and spade.

This is RYD-16SC

LOA - 21' 4"
LOD - 17' 4"
LWL - 16' 5"
Beam - 6' 6"
Draft - 18" (up) - 29" (down)
Sail Area - 162 sq. ft. (227 with sq. course)
Cp - .54
D/L - 103

http://byyb.org/cpg143/albums/userpics/1...ality=Full

This image was a shorter version to move the CE forward. It has less area (133 sq. ft.) but was better balanced and suited for the owner. The square course was tried, but abandoned. We had three aboard and it was all we could do to control the sail, which pulled like a mule down wind. Sheet and brace control was a problem with three crew and the sail was never hoisted again. It did get up to about 120 degrees with the course set.

So it can be done, but how many do you want aboard a small boat, to pull all the strings necessary to operate it.

David, you might also note Mike Pennington's cutter rigged Vac. Mike sails and uses his Vac s/v Aurora Wolf alot, often singlehanded. There are a number of options to add more sail off of a single stick.