10-29-2006, 08:23 PM
When we took my PC out today we found out it will not tack but it will jibe, Keith can give more details. Any suggestions? I am wondering if the excessive rake on the mast could be causing the problem?
10-29-2006, 08:23 PM
10-30-2006, 05:37 AM
Ed, try loosening the jib sheets when you go to tack. If the jib is too tight, it won't let you point up into the wind but will blow the bow off the wind. I noticed this when my PC was equipped with the jib. If your jib is controlled by two sheets (no clubfoot), which I believe it is, you can pull the sheet tight on what you want to become the windward side when you are caught in irons (pointing into the wind). This will push the bow over quickly and then you can sheet the jib correctly once you are turned.
Also, try pulling up the leeward bilgboard when sailing. The drag of the leeward bilgeboard through the water might be costing you the critical speed needed to make the turn. I noticed a much greater responsiveness to my PC when I switched to a centerboard because the boat had only one pivot point to turn around.
Finally, try falling off a bit to gain some speed and then throw the rudder hard over to make the turn. You will need to maintain momentum for steerage until you come out on the other tack. Waves can really bring the PC to a halt killing your momentum and causing you to miss the tack.
Also, try pulling up the leeward bilgboard when sailing. The drag of the leeward bilgeboard through the water might be costing you the critical speed needed to make the turn. I noticed a much greater responsiveness to my PC when I switched to a centerboard because the boat had only one pivot point to turn around.
Finally, try falling off a bit to gain some speed and then throw the rudder hard over to make the turn. You will need to maintain momentum for steerage until you come out on the other tack. Waves can really bring the PC to a halt killing your momentum and causing you to miss the tack.
10-30-2006, 06:19 AM
Both sheets were loose and I am using a center board like you had rigged on your PC. Keith was at the helm and tried everything he could to make it tack work but the boat just wouldn't tack. Maybe some day when you are free you can try it out and see what you think.
I am going to take the carborator apart again today and reclean it. We went through 4 plugs the 3 Autolight plugs fouled out. The Champion plug that finaly worked was one that I had taken out and tried to clean. It seems like the float valve was sticking again causing it to flood.
I am going to take the carborator apart again today and reclean it. We went through 4 plugs the 3 Autolight plugs fouled out. The Champion plug that finaly worked was one that I had taken out and tried to clean. It seems like the float valve was sticking again causing it to flood.
10-30-2006, 07:15 AM
My Mini-Cat is a pain to tack as well. (Typical of Cat sailing I believe) I just gybe instead. It's easier than fighting with it and I enjoy sailing more than fighting with why it won'y tack correctly.
My Jib sheet is smaller than the plans call for so I think that's my problem. I made it the wrong size and decided when it gets damaged or worn out I will make a new one.(The beauty of a tarp sail I suppose)
My Jib sheet is smaller than the plans call for so I think that's my problem. I made it the wrong size and decided when it gets damaged or worn out I will make a new one.(The beauty of a tarp sail I suppose)
10-30-2006, 07:47 AM
Ed, sorry I forgot that you had rigged with centerboard. Did you notice any excessive lee or weatherhelm in lighter winds (when she wasn't heeling?). If your center of effort is too far aft with the raked mast you should have noticed some weatherhelm. Don't think this would have effected tacking though. If we could figure out a day I would love to go out with you.
10-30-2006, 03:01 PM
There was more than what I consider normal weatherhelm. We also had some rudder issues due to a hole being on the rear of the rudder instead of the front of it. The rudder kept popping up and I would have to dunk it back down. I tried everything to make it tack and she was pretty reluctant to do it. I finally found the right line to get her to go over though. It was behind me the whole time coiled up in the seagull.
I was thinking about maybe making a rudder like Craigs and seeing if that helps her over, it will at least cut down on the weatherhelm. I'm not sure if my arm hurts more from pulling the motor rope of holding the tiller. Anyhow, we had wind and boat speed and we were doing things right when trying to tack but she just kept on refusing to go. We may have got her over twice but it wasn't easy.
Keith
I was thinking about maybe making a rudder like Craigs and seeing if that helps her over, it will at least cut down on the weatherhelm. I'm not sure if my arm hurts more from pulling the motor rope of holding the tiller. Anyhow, we had wind and boat speed and we were doing things right when trying to tack but she just kept on refusing to go. We may have got her over twice but it wasn't easy.
Keith
10-30-2006, 05:18 PM
I am not surprised that you had weatherhelm. Anytime the PC heels and that leeward bow chine digs in it will push the bow to windward with strong weatherhelm. Kinda feels like riding a barely in-control bronco. Read my article in the Gaff Rig on my version of a balanced rudder for the PC. It eliminated weatherhelm resulting in much better performance. Plus I could really get the boat to heel.
10-30-2006, 06:39 PM
When a plump, flat bottomed boat with a little rocker heels to one side, the symmetrical waterlines become quite distorted. The windward side (the side lifting) straightens out and the leeward side develops a bigger curve (if viewed from above). This acts just like an airplane wing and generates lift, which will crank the bow up into the wind, which is what you resist at the helm. This is normal, but some hull shapes are more obnoxious than others.
This isn't weather helm, but a strong lee surge, formed on the leeward side of the bow (picture a pile of water being pushed along, just aft of the cutwater, on the leeward bow). This is common problem with certain types of boats. A balanced rudder can help strong leeward surge tendencies, after you've run through the usually culprits that can cause difficult handling. This lee serge thing can be balanced out of the boat (most anyway) with tuning and appendage refinements.
The first thing to check is the actual amount of rudder deflection, needed to hold her on a straight, close hauled course. In light air, a degree or two of deflection is all you need, in heavy air (over 15 knots for these boats) 5 or 6 degrees is all you want (6 is usually too much, indicating your are over powered). This may not seem like much but this is the nature of a well balanced boat, anything less or more means something isn't good.
If you are within these limits and the boat is still hard mouthed, tuck a reef in the mainsail and see if this helps. If it's weather helm, it will help a bunch and you likely need to rake the stick or make other changes.
Take along extra crew the next time, to see if keeping her flat will permit easier tacks. The additional body(s) can serve as beer fetchers and rail meat to hold her down on a reasonably even keel.
The PC, more so then the Weekender and Vacationer has a pretty chubby hull form, which will bring on this leeward surge thing. The fuller bow plows a larger bow wave, which gets pushed to the leeward side when she heels. Cat boats are also known for this trait (and it still sucks) and you have to keep them on their feet, or in building winds she'll bite you.
This also could be another case for cutting back the fore foot a little to move the CLP aft. Conversely, adding a section of deadwood aft may be all she wants, without resorting to a reciprocating saw and redoing the sail plan or fore foot.
You could also try turning the rudder around . . . :wink:
Personally I'd try nailing a piece of 2x6 to the aft end of the underside of the deadwood. With one test sail, it would instantly tell you if you we moving in the right direction. If not a few nail holes are an easy patch job. If she liked it and wanted more I'd fill in the aft areas with some scrap lumber, until I found a configuration she liked. You can go back and do a nice job of the deadwood addition when you find the amount she wants.
This isn't weather helm, but a strong lee surge, formed on the leeward side of the bow (picture a pile of water being pushed along, just aft of the cutwater, on the leeward bow). This is common problem with certain types of boats. A balanced rudder can help strong leeward surge tendencies, after you've run through the usually culprits that can cause difficult handling. This lee serge thing can be balanced out of the boat (most anyway) with tuning and appendage refinements.
The first thing to check is the actual amount of rudder deflection, needed to hold her on a straight, close hauled course. In light air, a degree or two of deflection is all you need, in heavy air (over 15 knots for these boats) 5 or 6 degrees is all you want (6 is usually too much, indicating your are over powered). This may not seem like much but this is the nature of a well balanced boat, anything less or more means something isn't good.
If you are within these limits and the boat is still hard mouthed, tuck a reef in the mainsail and see if this helps. If it's weather helm, it will help a bunch and you likely need to rake the stick or make other changes.
Take along extra crew the next time, to see if keeping her flat will permit easier tacks. The additional body(s) can serve as beer fetchers and rail meat to hold her down on a reasonably even keel.
The PC, more so then the Weekender and Vacationer has a pretty chubby hull form, which will bring on this leeward surge thing. The fuller bow plows a larger bow wave, which gets pushed to the leeward side when she heels. Cat boats are also known for this trait (and it still sucks) and you have to keep them on their feet, or in building winds she'll bite you.
This also could be another case for cutting back the fore foot a little to move the CLP aft. Conversely, adding a section of deadwood aft may be all she wants, without resorting to a reciprocating saw and redoing the sail plan or fore foot.
You could also try turning the rudder around . . . :wink:
Personally I'd try nailing a piece of 2x6 to the aft end of the underside of the deadwood. With one test sail, it would instantly tell you if you we moving in the right direction. If not a few nail holes are an easy patch job. If she liked it and wanted more I'd fill in the aft areas with some scrap lumber, until I found a configuration she liked. You can go back and do a nice job of the deadwood addition when you find the amount she wants.
10-31-2006, 07:08 AM
Add some weight forward, the boat had too much weight aft with the two of you guys and that big motor. I would guess the weight in the stern was around 600# and the keel just could not get enough bite to overcome the wind and weight.