Hi All,
I just about have all the pieces for the keel ready. I glued up the last 2 18 foot 1x12s (16 foot + splice). I have cut out one side and the center long sections and all the bow pieces. I hope to have it all glued up by the end of the week-end, if the weather cooperates.
I picked up Keith McLean's dolly a couple of weeks ago. Thanks again Keith. As soon as the keel is ready I'll be putting the dolly back together and mounting the keel.
Plywood is still a big question. I've called around about SuperPly, MDO, marine ply, and ACX. The best price was ACX at $40 as sheet from a local full service lumber yard. I got the fir 1x12s there.
More later,
Ken
Marine ply of some type. You won't regret it.
I got a holt of a bad sheet of ACX, dang stuff wrinkled, the only thing I could do was cut it out. and make a sandwich, when I later added the second layer of Marine to the bottom five years later.
Just a hind sight view.
My thought is that any place exposed to the weather, you best plan to use glass cloth. Because ACX fir ply likes to check and it has voids.
Of coarse if you don't mind sanding, like me, and spreading paint every year, what the heck.
Look at it this way, $20 more a sheet? How many sheets? Five for the bottom, four for the deck and two for the cabin of half inch, that is only $220 more for a long term investment you won't regret. Might as well use it on the sides too. You probably won't spend $500 more for the whole project and you would have a better boat that just might last longer; although, I must admit my battleship is hanging in there. Another point, God forbid, the value of the boat's resail will be higher.
Sails were $650
Epoxy and glass $650
Paint, oh boy, $80 a year since the original $200 or so
Line, gear and hardware, I have no idea
hock:
Good wood is worth it if you plan to be sailing the boat fifteen years from now.
Like I said, my hind sight :roll:
Aside from the relatively small difference in total investment by going to better quality "Marine Plywood" you gain several very important things by going there instead of ACX.
The thickness of the laminations is extremely significant. On ACX the outer layers are thinner than the inner core laminations. This maks no difference when you apply it as sheathing on a flat surface or a home or other project, but when you bend it it makes a huge difference.
The absence of voids in Marine is enough to make me go there instead.
The edge glueing of the plugs is another on Marine vs. ACX.
The number of laminations on Marine vs. ACX. On 3/8", 5 compared to 3 with a thick core on the ACX. Same on 1/4". Makes for a much more consistent board to be flexed and bent to your needs. This and the lack of voids are the primary reasons to me.
Quality of the woods for the interior core laminations. Generally a much lower quality and grade of wood on ACX than on Marine even if it is Doug Fir Marine.
I would seriously recommend that you go to
www.glen-L.com and read their articles on Woods that are appropriate for boat building and then consider just how long you expect to have the project last you. Also I would tend to avoid anything that is Pine Plywood for a whole lot of other issues.
The cost of the basic building materials for your hull is a bunch to put out, but not that much compared to the overall investment. You will be happier in the long run, even if you have to wait and save up the difference instead of rushing into it. I know that any of these boat projects can be made with lesser quality/cost materials. But would you really want to? It is always your choice and decision to make. The principal reason that the Stevenson's used ACX was that it was a much higher quality product when they designed and built the boats in the first place.
I had no qualms about using ACX 20 years ago. But still used the marine grade Doug. Fir for hulls. Used the ACX for interior bulkheads and cabinets, etc. Always glassed over it on the exterior surfaces. And used a good high quality primer and paint on the interiors.
Wouldn't even consider it today. Things have changed too much with the "standards" for general construction use. All generally required due primarily to the lack of High grade peeler logs and plantation growing of them.
I am leaning toward Meranti BS 6566. It looks like I can get it delivered for about $65 to $70 a sheet from a couple of web vendors. That is about what I was quoted for marine, MDO, and SuperPly locally. I did see a good report on DF AA marine. Everything locally is AB. I think I'll make one more round of calls and see what happens.
Thanks,
Ken
Ken
If you don't mind which places are you able to order this type of ply at those places.
Wonder if I can get it shipped to Canada at anywhere near that price?
Thanks,
Ken
This is a subject that rubs me the wrong way at times....
There is much to be said about quality of lumber when building any wood project. Being a cabinet maker of many years, I can say with surety that the difference between mediocre and outstanding can sometimes be only the material the product was made from.
Having said that, budget is almost always in the picture when a person attempts to make something for himself that they could not normally afford. With those budgets, there is a constant struggle of give and take on quality of components. And there is ALWAYS someone to give their opinion of where and what you can skimp on, and what you should paid all the money for.
I don't know how many sheets of plywood a Vacationer needs, but guessing at it from the Weekender plans, I would say it would be approximately 15 sheets of the various thicknesses. Meranti marine ply in my area is $70.00 a sheet. ACX is $20.00 a sheet. The numbers are deceiving, I know. $1050.00 for Marine Ply. $300.00 for ACX. $750.00 for peace of mind. Marine ply is, by far, the better choice in quality standards. But that difference in price would put the project well out of sight for myself and many others.
Like grommets, rope, and paint, the items readily available to most of us are in the big box store, and of questionable quality, at best. I would not build a dog house from ACX from one of these stores. These products are the cheapest available, usually meaning the quality is barely within specs. Doing a little research shopping may open one's eyes to a different world. There are many specialty stores out there that sell mainly wholesale to businesses that have higher standards.
The ACX I am using was purchased from a plywood wholesaler. It is 5-ply douglas fir, with the ply thicknesses varying somewhat, but relatively even. The store is open to the public. I purchased it as a retail customer. It cost $22.00 a sheet for the 1/2". While it is of much better quality than Home Depot's ACX, it is still ACX. It will have some voids, and the veneer quality will vary in the core. I know this, and I will deal with the consequences of my decision. Fir will check and crack from exposure to UV. Some extra measures here, extra 'glass and urethane, varnish, many other precautions can be taken. I am stripping my deck and cabin top with cedar and fiberglass.
My point is, I would not want my opinion to keep another from experiencing the building of one's own boat. By all means, if you can justify the use of marine plywood, I highly recommend it. If, for whatever reason, you must settle for the inferior ACX, shop around. Not all ACX is the same, but there is still a good amount of quality stuff still out there. You can build a high-quality, completely functional boat from ACX, and it will last many years, if you take precautions consequent to your decisions. My forward bulkhead is cut from, dare I say it, CDX! It will be glassed and painted, and probably never exposed to UV. If I had said nothing, none of you out there would know by looking at it. If the cabin fills with water when the paint/fiberglass barrier fails, I may have a problem. I don't see that as a realistic scenario.
10 years ago, I built a plywood stitch and glue canoe. I used AC cabinet plywood, which used no exterior glue. I used polyester resin and cloth tape for the seams. I did not sand the wood before applying the resin. Exterior latex paint inside and out, applied with a standard paint roller. I received so much ridicule for the materials I made it with, I never used it. I strapped it to the top of my truck to take to the junk yard, when my neighbor easily talked me out of it. He is still using it to this day. Every weekend during the summer. Same paint. Nice boat.
Ken try calling Dixie Plywood, I haven't dealt with them in a while but they used to carry marine ply. I'm sure you could get fir ACX as well. It may be worth trying them.
Keith
Ken,
Call Windsor Plywood. You should have one in Winnipeg. They carry a large variety of marine ply.
Ken,
If the dealer has AB Douglas Fir Marine, you don't really need to look for AA instead. You are going to find it difficult to get AA without a special order most likely. There isn't a significant difference between the A and B sides except for the number of plugs. The mfg. of AA for special orders will likely be a bit more selective and attentitive as far as voids are concerned too.
When building use the "B" side out where it will be covered with glass, resin and your chosen paint. Using the "A" side in the interior or where it will not be covered by glass. The glass protects the "B" side and allows you to prime and paint the "A" side for a nice interior Finish. The interior will be less prone to checking and generally isn't going to give you issues.
Same with any other plywood you choose unless you need to have the better grade surface for staining and varnishing.
Brit,
I understand the frustration and concerns about various types and grades of plywood. It is long standing discussion and brings a lot of confusion or mistaken impressions about the topic. When you build a smaller boat such as a kayak or small dingy with plywood it generally doesn't have the same stresses or demands that a larger hull has on it. So you can do a lot with less expensive materials and still get good results.
So too with using latex paints. They work well and it is easy to fix dings and scrapes. The discussion is for those that are interested in obtaining a better wearing and performing surface finish and don't know the differences.
I am quite concerned about mis-understandings about what is suitable and what is not. What with a lot of new builders and with this project most likely being their first boat building challenge the questions come up. The see the video and then may or may not find a good supplier of ACX. Their only choice that is even relatively close to them may be the "Big Box Stores" and the bottom of the barrel as far as actual quality.
They make a few calls and find that as you mentioned the huge difference between what they found and what the true plywood dealer has to offer. Quite quickly the $1500 project looks like it may end up at twice that. There is no question that lesser quality plywood will work and can be used to build it. The cost savings can be several hundred dollars on a Weekender and even more on the Vacationer.
But as you mentioned, there are other places to check and get more consistent and reasonably priced material. Hard to decide that getting it from a distance away may actually be a better deal. Many members will offer their local knowlege to advantage.
I too have used lower grades for bulkheads and other parts of boats that are not structurally significant and exposed to the elements. And quite often it is just fine. I always look for a minimum of an exterior grade rating and try to hand select the panels that I may end up using. These typically would be completely encapsulated and used for lockers or interior bulkheads in my situations.
In any case it is always the builders choice and decision. Anyone that tries to tell them that they are wrong is totally out of line in my mind. There are lots of boats that are built that don't use the better grades of materials and the builders get a totally useable and enjoyable end result. I would rather see a boat that get used and was constructed well even if not using the best grades of wood. Maintenace may end up being more involved and needed more often, but if it gets used and enjoyed and is safe, then why not. It is for their own use and not intended for resale. Unfortunately a lot of those built with lower quality materials end up setting in the back of a lot covered with weeds and rotting away. Could have been lack of maintenance or just neglect or lack of further interest. But in my experience it is important that they have good information to make decisions and choices.
My intent is to offer information that some may not recoginze or not know where to access it. To a new boat builder, the differences are not so apparent to first glance. Hard to explain to a new builder what the voids may do or what may result from using the wrong wood or glue choices. And they get frustrated when fasteners don't hold well or the wood splits every time they try to drive a screw into it. Or just why that nicely finished piece of hardwood turnes black under the many coats of varnish.
Just a different game than building cabinetry. Not so much from a woodwoking point of view, but from a life expectancy and maintenance point of view. Hard to explain to someone why poplar just isn't recommended for boat building until they see it begin to disintegrate when out in the weather. Aand then to tell them that Tulip Poplar is just fine. Or that white pine, although inexpensive, is just the wrong choice but Southern Yellow Pine is good. Same with white and red oak.
So if you and I (along with many others that have some experience) can help to prevent some frustration and offer some encouragement and alternatives then perhaps the discussion is valid and will be ongoing.
Hard to get new visitors/builders tuned to FAQ sectiona. Perhaps more emphasis is warranted in featuring the FAQ's and links to good information. I for one hope so. As the board gets rebuilt, I'm sure that it will become a more user friendly place for the new builder and those looking for good information. Also to help them source supplies.