BYYB Forums

Hello VAC builders,
I have heard from one person so far that the keel needs improvements. Since before I purchased the plans I wondered how efficient the keel would be without any weight added. I wonder if anyone has experimented with adding weight. Results? Also as I contemplate building the keel I feel that building it as designed with 3/4" stock, that maybe it would be better to build it with 2 1/4" stock instead, say about five pieces bolted together as shown below. There would be more integrity without so much gluing and nailing. Third piece from left is where I would incorporate the balast. Thoughts? Is there a design contact available?


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Sam I don't really know the answer to this question but I have been told that a one peace 2 1/4" keel would tend to warp and you wouldnt have as much strength in the joint where the bow turns up. Why don't you contact Craig Gleason and go over and talk to him about it and look at his VAC. He sails in your area. I have seen pictures of his laid up on her ear so he could also tell you about the ballast. Bud.

Sam,
When the Stevensons designed the Vacationer, it was relatively easy to find good 3/4 X 12" stock on the west coast and other areas of the country. The primary advantage to using three layers of thinner stock is that it is less prone to warpage than a single thick piece of material would bem a lot easier to work with and fabricate and more much more affordable.

Long lengths of good stock have become relataively scarce and also more expensive. So to counter that many of the builders have used narrower widths and lengths of 3/4" material and made up in essence a glue lam of sorts. Some of them use biscuits to join the pieces together and then the layers as well.

Ideally you would find quartersawn stock in 12" widths by X length and work from there as the quartersawn boards will be less prone to warping and presenting issues with gaps down the road. Finding narrower and shorter lengths of quartersawn 3/4" thick material is a lot easier and quite a bit easier on the pocketbook.

If you use plain sawn material, you will have cupping and warping regardless of what you do to assemble the layers. There have been a number of builders that have found this to be the case and been willing to talk about it and show what they have done to fill the gaps later on before rot takes hold.

A single layer keel with solid wood unless quartersawn is highly likely to have profound warping issues. Building up a keel from 2 1/4" stock laid up in layers like a glue lam, if carefully chosen pieces of wood, will be more stable and less prone to those issues. The biggest drawback is getting a good tight joint with each piece joining to the next layer. Again quartersawn stock would give the best results. Biscuit joining will make it easier to join the layers.

In the South you are fortunate in that you have both Cypress and long leaf Southern yellow pine. Both make good keel stock on a trailerable boat. Again try to pick out quarter sawn stock and you will not have issues with warping or cupping.

Not sure why you would figure you might need to add ballast on a Vacationer. The boat is solid and not a tender platform. Plenty of hull width to make it stable and it is heavy enough that moving about isn't a problem.

I remember from quite some time back that Konrad from Lincoln, Ne stated that his Vac seemed to handle better with about 700 lbs of human ballast. I think that unless you will be party sailing (with lots of people aboard) a little ballast won't hurt at all. I plan to ballast mine with about 500 lbs of steel located in the center of the keel and loose interior ballast that would also help trim the boat.

Building your keel from larger dimension stock then 1 by, will prevent you from successfully using epoxy to hold the parts together. The internal stresses as well as the amount of swelling/shrinkage of these, sizable timbers will be asking to much from epoxy. You could use other glues, but the expansion/contraction issues, which may not affect them, will present issues with the bedding between the keel top and the bottom planks.

Pieces of lumber that are epoxied together shouldn't be any thicker then one inch.

Barry's correct that quarter sawn or good rift sawn stock is needed on the keel. It keeps the swelling/shrinkage to a minimum and produces a more stable laminate, much less likely to spit out some epoxy and have a seam gap, where water can get in and start rot.

Your nibbed scarf layout shows considerable thought and a knowledge of boat building joints. If your other skills are as developed, you'll have little difficulty building Vacationer.

If you'd like to incorporate some building changes, many that will lighten and strengthen the hull, then drop me an email. Vacationer was designed some time ago and newer techniques, methods and materials are now available, that can truly change the ease of the build.

I too would caution you against fixed ballast. This topic has been hashed out many times and there are differing approaches. Each boat should be addressed as the conditions arise, after launch, not before hand. Vacationer is very stable, easily supporting a couple standing on the rail. This is a substantial boat, not easily tipped uncomfortably so. Fixing the ballast limits load carrying ability and trim adjustments to suit conditions and outfitting (what you carry aboard).

The design changes you decide to invest in, should be worked out now, so you don't have to tear anything out to make the modification. Drop me a line and we can discuss it, if you'd like.

Thanks Bud
You are right, and unless I find suitably dried and quarter sawn wood I won’t do it. I have made contact with Craig and expect to discuss it more fully with him soon.

Barry,
Great confirmations to many of my thoughts. I appreciate the timely and informative suggestions. I am currently looking at Cypress. This local mill also carries Juniper. Most of the information I have about ballast leads me to think it may need it. Still researching this however.

Hello Doug,
So you are in the planning stages? Stay in touch, would be interested in how you are going to place five hundred pounds on her keel.

Paul,
Thank you for the response. I had not planned on using epoxy as glue. I will inform myself about that and many other building topics as I proceed.

Thank you all for helping me do the very best job I can,
Sam

Sam,

Build your keel as strong as you can, and it wouldn't hurt to think of some way to protect the front edge under the bow. Takes the most abuse.

I don't think you'll need the ballast, unless you plan on raising the length of your mast for more sail area. Some of us seem to think we need more sail :lol:

I suppose, I should ask if you plan to sail her in the Gulf? Then I could see why you might be thinking of adding ballast. But add just as much positive ballast to compensate for the heavy stuff that doesn't float.

The Vacationer is very stable, I weigh 250lbs and she barely heels, when I hang out off the backstays. In hard winds, I just spill sail and she comes right back up.

As far as ballast, yes, she does sail better with some weight up forward. Depending on whether you plan to use a motor, sail single handed, or with crew, one varies the amount of weight you shift forward.

The idea is to keep the bow down, and one will get more speed and wind ward ability with the Vacationer.

Personally, lately, I'm usually trying to find away to ditch some weight :roll: By the time you get a deep cycle battery, motor, gas, stove, oars, anchors, extra line, tools, spare parts, extra clothes, food/cooler, water, bedding, PFDS, cushions, safety equipment, fishing gear, waders, spare shoes, music, various electrical gadgets, and normal boat gear, well, you'll be surprised at how much the old girl's waterline changes.

I've sailed my Vacationer with the hull empty, with crew and without. The Vacationer, when she is light/empty, will move forward in the water that is glass smooth, if there is enough breeze to flicker a Bic lighter. (With four people on board) Fact.

Add a little more weight and she takes a bit more to get moving. :wink:

Enjoy your build, takes lots of pictures, ask lots of questions and visit the different Vacationer Builders' websites. My wheel barrow load of advice.

Mike,
I am impressed with some of the shots of your boat and the beauty of your lake. I am surprized at how many people have used these plans. Your advise is great and I will remember about the protection of the keel.
Thanks

The Vacationer is a good boat, I have not regretted the money that I have invested in the Aurora Wolf. The sixth season and she is still in good condition, just normal expected repairs.

Half the fun for me is having the boat right outside the garage to tinker on 8)

Now, lakes in Alaska, we try and sail a new one every year. Although Big Lake is the closest that matches the Vacationer's size, and tends to be sailed more for the weekend and our single day trips. I prefer the more remote lakes and bays off the coast, :wink: More photo opportunities.

The Vacationer has the advantage of the cabin, over any of the other designs, I like. She may not be as fast as the Bolger Light Schooner, but she can hold her own with most other boats. Plus, she is sound enough that I feel safe and comfortable while out on Katchemak Bay.

And let me tell you, once you have a boat with a cabin, it tends to spoil you. Sleeping down below if the weather turns bad, hot chocolate, a happy un-rained on wife. There are advantages over an open boat, just ask the ladies of all the friends we have with open boats that raft up to use the head.

I’ll be waiting to see some pictures, Sam. Plus, you have Craig to help with a guiding thought or two. His website was the major source of information for me, when I built my boat, I would have been lost, otherwise.

I don't post often, but, I will weigh in on this I guess. I built a stock design Vacationer and launched her on 2 November 2004 with my 21 year old son. We sailed for a couple of hours and then the wind picked up. I couldn't get her to tack into the wind, so was trying to tack by gybing. IT worked several times but, at one point as the boat came through the wind it heeled over and kept on going, capsizing and then going completly upside down. We righted the boat easily, but, were unable to bail it due to seas. We were rescued by the Coast Guard and treated for hypothermia after spending about 45 min in 45 degree water. The Coast Guard was kind enough to pump her out and tow her back to the launch ramp where my truck was.
I decided some modifications were in order. first I built a watertight hatch for the forward compartment, that is now all floatation(the bow was really low in the water when the boat was swamped). The other thing I did was add 400 pounds of lead ballast in the form of four 100 lb lead blocks on the inside of the cabin. They are through bolted to the keel. I do not think the keel-frame structure is really strong enough for that much weight on the keel itself. It does kind of mess up the cabin, but, I feel better about it.
I have only been out once since I finished all this and had a very successful two day sail. She tacks better and is quite stable, even in 3' seas. Now, I am not saying that what I did is necessary or the best thing. But, since I sail on cold, frequently open waters, (Southeast Alaska) I felt that any edge would help. I do not want to go into the water again if I can help it.
After a lot of thought I beleive that the capsize was probably operator error much more than any design flaw. Just be careful gybing in big seas.