First, I would like to say that after 2 days of reading through the forums here, I see that there are a lot of good people with a great deal of knowledge gathered together. I first started looking for a sailboat design for an RC setup, and next thing I'm looking at the Weekender thinking to myself that I could do this. I spent a couple weeks trying to talk myself into going forward with this project, and was for some reason hesitating. Last saturday, I went to a local lake to take pictures (photography is another hobby) and happened to end up photographing a 21' sailboat. Climbing on board was the turning point for me. I have to have one.
Today, I had a rather disappointing event.... I went to a local lumber supply company to check on the lumber for the boat. Being in Ohio means if you're not building it from #2 pine, you're not building it. So.... Now on to improvisation. I can order in marine plywood. It's not cheap, but if I'm going to spend months working on this boat, I want it to last. If I buy a mix of Meranti & Okume ply (thinking I have understood the differences, and what should be used for what) I am still looking at around $600 just in plywood. If anyone has any suggestions as to alternatives which will last, I am definitely open to possibilities.
As for the lack of anything other than construction lumber locally, I am curious if the keel could be formed from plywood. Several layers laminated together I would think would be as strong as 1X12's, and would also allow the possibility of making a deeper keel. I would think another 6-12" of keel would add to stability greatly. Also, I am planning to add a 1/2" steel plate across the bottom of the keel to prevent damage due to beach landings (which I think would be common for me) and would also add some weight below center.
As far as some of the smaller trim, The hatch cover and cabin top cover I would like to create from solar panels for charging the electrical system, so no major wood required there. The grab rails I could fabricate from aluminum, have black anodized, and mounted cheaper than I could buy the raw wood. Much of the hardware I could fabricate for little if any cost.
With nothing more than framing lumber available, you can imagine the look I get when I ask about a 4X4 over 8' long. Has anyone tried rigging this boat with aluminum tubing? If so, did it work? If not, does anyone think it would?
I haven't been able to find much information regarding electric motors on this boat. Any trolling motor will move just about any boat. What amount of thrust would be required to push this boat into a 10mph headwind at a reasonable speed? My goal is to not have a gas motor. I am shooting for 8-10 amps of solar charging, which should allow intermittent use of a good size trolling motor with no charging (or other intervention) required. Now I just need to figure out the motor size, to figure out the battery size, to figure out the lighting load, to figure out.... well.... you get the idea.
So... My first post here reads like a novel.... I am dying to get started building my first boat... And I am hoping to come up with some decent solution which will net me a long lasting and fun to sail boat.
Thanks to all for the info I have already gathered here, and for any insight into my current problems with getting my project started.
Scarcity of building materials is the mother of ingenuity. Or something like that....There have been some that have made there keels from plywood, although I would shy away from it, personally. If you have nothing but construction materials available to you, is there any fir around? Fir would make a very good keel.
I have been a strong proponent of using ACX plywood for the hull and deck, but now I would recommend against it. There has been such a demand for it since Katrina, that finding anything usable is nearly impossible. Production is so fast and furious, quality is an afterthought, it seems. Meranti is a good marine plywood, and could be successfully used for the whole project. Okume is the pricey stuff, although arguably better. Spending the extra money for materials will pay off in the long run.
An aluminum mast....I've been looking into that, myself. There's no real reason it can't be done, I just don't know how to determine the diameter and wall thickness required for such a mast.
The solar panel in the hatch is an idea I am trying. I got a VW solar panel off ebay for about $20, and am going to incorporate it into the forward hatch. If that isn't enough, I will put a second charger into the cabin hatch.
Here's a thread from another forum about electric motors:
http://messing-about.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4349
Hope some of this is useful.
I have long not liked ACX for many reasons and the recent crop of plywood from the mills is terrible as Brit pointed out.
You can use Douglas fur plywood for much cheaper then Okume, but the finishing costs will be higher. Sapele is another possibility and about 30% cheaper then Okume and about 20% more then Douglas fur, but is much easier to finish. Meranti is also less costly, but much of this is of questionable quality if not stamped with a BS 1088 or 6566 label.
A deeper keel will not make the Weekender more stable. Stability is a function of several factors and keel depth has little to do with it. Adding weight will make it slightly more stable, but the boat is already very stable, considering what she is, which is an unballasted, 13' LWL sailor of moderate beam. Weekender's (Vacationer and the PC too) gain the vast majority (90%) of their stability from the shape of the boat. This is called "form" stability and is one of the two primary methods designers employ to make a boat stay with the decks facing up.
A few have made keels from plywood, but it's not as strong as a solid lumber laminate (half the grain is running in the wrong direction inside the plywood) The keel is not a true structural member in these boats, so it's not attached well, nor does it have the hull stress loads transmitted to it. The bottom planking, the attached sides and bulkheads provide the real strength of this construction. The keel provides some lateral area (not enough in my opinion) to prevent skidding sideways when the wind is abeam or farther forward. The keel can be deepened, but I recommend you tread very lightly here. You can easily screw up the handling and balance of the yacht if you just take a guess at what may be correct. It can be done, but should be worked out on paper by a person skilled enough not to make things much worse then deepening the draft.
An aluminum mast is very possible and the "A" section tube, available from Glen-L, will work on the Weekender very nicely. It will not look near as nice as a tapered wooden mast and may not be as light as a well built birdsmouth stick. The "A" section mast takes a 3/8" bolt rope and this is handy on most boats, though could cause issues with the gaff.
Electric trolling motors will only push a Weekender to about 3 knots, which is "trolling" speed. They are limited by their prop size and shape. In a flat clam with glass like water, a big 36 volt motor may get you near hull speed (less then 5 knots) but they are also designed to move boats at trolling speeds. A 25 pound motor will do fine, a 35 pound motor will provide some additional power to push through mild chop and current and a 45 pound motor will push you around most any current, wind or chop. All this can be done on 12 volts, though the bigger the motor the faster the battery drain will be.
In the end of it all, I'd suggest you get the plans and look them over very well, until you are intimate with them. Start assembling some materials that you will need for the beginning stages of the build. You'll need space to build and space to work on parts and assemblies.
Try not to reengineer the structural elements, rig or underwater areas of the boat. It isn't a place for guess work, trust me. There are many other things and areas of these boats that enjoy a wide variety of modification and alteration. This is your first boat and we want you to have success and build more (it's an illness, you got it and there's no known cure other then building) We'd also like to see pictures and hear of all the great and not so great things that happen along the way. You see, we're into the same kind of pain and misery love company . . . Good luck and welcome aboard.
As for reengineering.... I normally don't.... Although I am thinking I may have to with the way things are going. As for Fir, I can get it locally, although what I saw today made me think the #2 pine was a safer bet.
I would prefer to build exactly as designed, but I am going to have to improvise on some things. The aluminum mast, as I see it, for the length involved.... I am looking at 6061 T6 alum tube, 3" diameter, .125 wall thickness. I think with the lines tied to it, it would be solid enough to handle anything I would attempt to sail in & weigh less. The way it is looking, I could get the tube for less than half of what a good quality 4X4 of the same length would cost me.
As for the volvo charger.... Go to affordable-solar and put out the money for a real panel. It won't be $20, but you get what you pay for. I have 4 Matrix panels on the roof of my house which run lighting & all my computer equipment. Half an amp is nothing more than a topping charge for a battery that sits for long periods (although if that's as little as it gets used, go for it)
Solar power is without a doubt expensive, although it is the only source of electricity I've found with almost no maintenance. It's a high initial investment, and something you can forget about after it's set up.
What woods are acceptable for the keel boards? I have found some that I can order in poplar & spruce without spending more on the keel than the plywood.
As for the trolling motor, I have looked into making a custom prop, and hadn't thought about looking into aftermarket... I'll have to research that one. I had planned on at the very least pairing deep cycle batteries at 190ah combined. Weight would be 130lbs for the pair. For charging I was considering a pair of Matrix 80 Watt panels (far from cheap, but the Matrix panels I run at the house have performed well for 2 years now) with a combined max charging capability of 9.2 amps.
I never imagined going into this that finding lumber would be the biggest problem I would come across.
Welcome aboard and best of luck to you. I live in Northern Ohio (Akron, Cleveland area) and know of some suppliers of wood up here. If that is of any help please let me know. As for the Keel if you look at the Bill of Materials list (
http://www.stevproj.com/wkndmatlst.html) you'll note that #2 Pine is one of the recommended woods. This is what I'm using, I'm still building but the keel seems to be rock solid.
Best Regards
Mike Speare
Honestly, my keel is made from #2 eastern white pine. Treated with epoxy and polyurethane, I think it's fine, although not extraordinarily durable. I would probably move to the Doug Fir if I were to do it again, just for the weight, if not the rot resistance. As soft as pine is, though, I will be employing a sacrificial boot of either hardwood or aluminum, to keep the keel edge from being damaged.
Your aluminum mast will work fine, I'm sure. Post pictures and keep asking questions. And welcome to the madness.
Welcome indeed!
You might start by going to
www.glen-l.com and reading the part of the site on woods that are suitable for boat building. In particular pay attention to grain types on boards and to marine standards for lumber and for plywood. The information is a few years old but sound and basic.
You might also read a bit of this link as well.
http://www.messing-about.com/forum/viewt...discussion
In the OLD BYYB Forum(s) there is a ton of valuable information that can be had with the search function. These discussions on suitable woods for building a Weekender have been ongoing since the beginning of the BYYB and its various rebirths. There have been a lot of regional issues addressed as well as discussions on what to watch out for in selecting a good wood for this purpose or other. And where to find it. Lots of builders have come out of Ohio with successful projects. Lots have also had issues with the materials they selected.
If possible try to find quartersawn wood to build with. It doesn't warp, it has relatively straight grain and you should be able to select the boards from their stock. This isn't construction graded lumber. But most family or privately owned yards will know where to get it for you.
You have to be realistic about cost of materials. This is a demanding use as compared to a wall or floor. I get very concerned about long term useability. There are a lot of Weekenders sitting on trailers or in the weeds after only a season or two of use. Owner/builders didn't understand the differences or what it takes to maintain a wooden boat or that wood moves seasonally. Doesn't matter how much glass and how much epoxy you use or how many screws, it will still move and move against other pieces that move differently. So stable woods are a necessity if you want to have minimal maintenance requirements. Budgets are a tough thing. Wood is the minor cost in these boats. So if it costs $600 for reasonable plywood, then that is still a minor part of the overall cost. But if you feel that you can only afford $400 for wood, then perhaps an RC model may be just the thing. I'm not trying to discourage you but being realistic is a big part of this too. But you may find that good materials will set you back over $1,000 for just plywood and lumber suitable for your project.
Southern Yellow Pine is a good wood in your area to use. Quartersawn is available from a lot of yards in Ohio. How do I know when I live in Washington. I've been there and looked for others first hand. Yes, it is hard to find at most construction oriented yards. But you may have to talk to more than just the guy on the phone or the order desk. They have to understand what you need and you unfortunately have to be able to ask for what you want and know something about what you are asking about.
Search for some of the discussions on keel lumber in both forums. You will find a lot of good information from a lot of builders that have been there and some builders with a lot of experience offering some good advice. But it is always your choice and your project. Don't let someone tell you that there is only one way to do it. And don't be in such a rush that you are not willing to search out what you need. It ia all out there and available and probably not all that far away from you. But do your research first and ask a lot of questions. The only dumb ones are the ones that come after it is too late to do anything about it.
You can build a good birdsmouth mast out of smaller boards and have a really good lightweight and relatively inexpensive mast. Good experience and will last you for years. Lots less than purchasing an aluminum mast suitable to the design.
Plenty of experience represented hereabouts to build this way.
I grew up to my early teens in Pennsylvania and I keep going back to a saying that I picked up there. "The hurrier you go the behinder you get."
Do the research, ask the questions, even the "dumb" ones, listen to the answers, then do more research and begin to formulate a "Materials Source List" and get on the phone and internet. Ask more questions and have the patience to listen to the answers from those that have been there before. Without question many others have gone thru the same thing you are going thru and lots have tried other methods. Some work, most don't. There is a reason for the Weekender being such a popular design. It works as designed and is relatively easy to build and affordable. But yes it can be built cheaper, and for less. But at what ultimate price? It can also be built for a lot more and to a very high finish. But it will cost more and may require a lot more to keep it that way.
Regional issues are a big deal. What works in Arizona may not be the way to go in Maine or Florida or Washington or California or New Zeeland or England. And there is a lot of help available that will cross those boundaries to help make it a successful build.
On my Weekender I've gone with a plywood keel laminated out of 3/4" plywood. I'm also adding a 1 1/2" steel strip to the bottom. For my mast, I'm planning on building one out of 2 2X4s sandwiching a 1/2" piece of lumber.
These decisions are based on seeing others use similar materials and lots of reading. How things will actually work out since I'm deviating from the plans is yet to be seen.
The one trick for supplies is to find a good local lumber supplier (not one of the big box stores). You can often find quality materials there. We have several builders from Ohio on the board so they might have some suppliers for you depending on where you live. The Cleveland area has it's own association as well - CABBS
Hello and welcome,
What part of Ohio are you in? I live in the greater Cleveland Area and am a geneneral contractor I maybe able to help with the materials that you need.
On my current project I am using Aquatech it carries the Bs6566 rating. Even with shipping it was cheaper than buying marine fir at Cleveland Plywood wholesale.
For structual members, stringers ect. doug fir is readly avaliable in 2 by stock in long lengths. You need to go to a yard that caters to home builders. Doug fir is still the wood of choice for stick framing lage roof system in this area. If you dig through the pile you can get some stuff that is pretty close to clear.
For the spars I laminated clear southern yellow pine aslo avaliable through builders yards or you could laminate up some fir also. On the Vacationer the yellow pine is heavy enough I think the fir would have been to heavy.
Just some thoughs from a fellow buckeye.
Andrew thanks for the plug. CABBS is a great resource for information and folks that can't get enough boat building. Check us out at
www.cabbs.org
Also take a look at the Erie fleet here on this board, some BYYB folks will be hitting Ohio for CABBS week in June, you might see a weekender or two in person.
Jim
Welcome John! I am a former Erie fleet member who has abandoned colder weather and moved down south (they lured me with more money and a better job!). I build a PC in Cuyahoga Falls, OH and was very pleased with the results. I sold that PC in my move down South and now miss it terribly.
There is a lot of good advice in the previous posts a lot of which is based on experience and some of which is based on opinion. Most importantly is your budget, where you plan on sailing and how you plan on storing your boat. I built mine using Poplar (we have a good species in Ohio) for the keel and stringers. Nice straight grained wood with no knots and cuts great. I used ACX plywood for the rest of the boat and it has lasted 6 years without any major problems (other than the mast--laziness issue there). Six years, as it turned out, was more than enough time for me so I am glad I didn't spend the extra money. Remember, boatbuilding is an addiction and you will most likely move onto other boats as time goes on. My boat was stored inside for 3 years and outside (under a really excellent tarp) for two. If I had to store it outside for longer and/or kept it in the water I would have considered marine plywood.
As for changing the design...well, I am guilty of that :oops: . These boats seem to be rather tolerant of changes and you will certainly get a lot of ideas and advice from the people on this forum. Here is my advice. First, don't deepen the keel since it makes it harder to trailer, launch, and beach. Second, consider putting a drop keel/centerboard in your boat. These were originally in the design which is why the keel calls for 3 layers of 3/4" wood. The centerboard was supposed to be sandwiched between. This won't help with stability but will help with pointing ability (how close you can sail to the wind). I have noticed that these boats do need some extra underwater resistance. Three, cosider raising the cabin if you plan on sleeping onboard a lot or reducing the length of the cabin (with a bridgedeck) or eliminating it alltogether if you don't plan to overnight that much. The cabin is a nice spot to store stuff and get out of the sun but it does limit the cockpit capacity of the weekender. Three, make a wooden mast both because it is relatively easy and you will like the sounds a wooden mast makes over that of an aluminum (slap slap slap of the halyards rather than a nervous tink tink tink).