BYYB Forums

Greetings - have a question to ask the forum:
I REALLY want to build a Vacationer.  Love the idea of boat camping, multi-day sails, etc.  I've never sailed, but have some nice lakes here in central Kentucky on which to learn.  Looking at a Vacationer because I'd like the option of taking my wife and another couple (or two) along on day sails.  So I don't really want to go down to a Weekender.  Now, I've read that a Vacationer cannot be righted in the case of a knock-down.  I also understand the limits of a Stevenson boat - you just have to know your boat and monitor the weather conditions.  But IF a knock-down happens, what does one do?  Surely you don't abandon the boat and let her sink just because you made a dumb move to get her out in more wind than was prudent.  I don't want to build another company's boat.  Many others are self-righting, etc, but I want a Vacationer.  So, help me relieve my fears that one should abandon all hope in the event she goes belly up.  Thanks for the input.

A capsize is a rare thing, in a Vacationer, not that you can't manage to screw up bad enough to have it happen anyway. There's two basic types of capsizes: the first is a sudden, unexpected gust that lays her over hard and the second is, you just weren't paying attention and plain screwed up. The unexpected gust can get you anywhere any time, but most of the time, you'll have had many warnings that the weather was going south on your butt, so you'd have reefed or headed to shore or the lee of a land mass for some protection. The other type is when you just bonehead yourself into a situation, which is pretty easy for a novice sailor to do.

Assuming you don't have a sudden "down burst" nail you, this leaves screwing up. Vacationer needs you to really screw up hard, before she'll flop over on her side. Long before she does, you'll have known you're doing something wrong. The boat will be shipping water over the rail, pouring into the cockpit, moistening your butt and other sorted undesirables. At this point, you'd ease the sheets to get the boat back on her feet and/or change course, both to ease the strain on the helm. Ingor the warning the boat is giving you and she might teach you a lesson.

There's an old rule about gaffers, which is if you think you need to reef, you probably should have already, so heed this. Capsizes are almost always skipper error, so sail conservatively, especially if you're new at it. If the winds get to 15 knots, reef and head back to shore. Sailing is very intuitive and you'll figure things out pretty quickly, but you can make mistakes as a newbie. If you sail in modest wind strengths and get some "sea legs" under your lubber butt, you'll gain enough experience to handle the occasional gust or summer thunderstorm that might catch you with your paints down.

A Vacationer capsize will have the crew and skipper trying to remain in a boat that's heeled over at 60 degrees, so if you haven't figured out this isn't good, maybe it's a lesson you'll need to learn. At 60 degrees, you can't remain in the seats, you'll be standing on the toerail or bulwark, with water rushing past your feet, on the side deck. Simply letting the helm go, so the boat can "find 'er own way" will usually permit the puppy to stand up and you can sit back down, in the freshly wet cockpit seats, maybe begin a MOB recovery operation, to get your half drunk brother in law out of the drink.

Simply put, don't even think about a capsize, it's very rare and you really have to screw up bad for it to happen. Don't get me wrong, there is a statistical possibility that a down burst can get you, but it's a very small percentage. I lost a friend when the Pride of Baltimore capsized and sank (in minutes) after a down burst. They screwed up and had both main hatches open after an Atlantic crossing, finally in warm waters again. There wasn't any hint of this weather potential (back then there wasn't nearly what we have now). They were sailing along on beam reach in modest but building winds, when out of nowhere a 60 MPH gust smashed them over (these are very violent things) and the two hatches shipped so much water, she was under in less than 5 minutes. So, it can and does happen, but it's rare, especially now with the weather forecasting we have now.

Simply put, just get her built and sail her. Take her out on modest wind days, (12 knots or less) and learn her quirks and idiosyncrasies. Learn how to turn, reef, maneuver with confidence, etc. Kentucky Lake is a nice place to sail (I've sailed her many times) and being fairly well protected by surrounding knobs and the like, not a place where you have to worry about sudden systems coming up and spanking your ass. It does happen, but you'll see it coming and can take action, before it tosses a family member in the wet stuff. Remember, you're the skipper, so it's up to you. A scared skipper is a safe skipper and the one that will usually come home.

as usual, pauls nailed all the points. the only thing i'd add, is that most of us have built in floatation in the form of airtight compartments, or foam. in my skipjack, i know that even if i did get knocked over, the boat won't sink. i don't know what the method of choice is on the vacationer, i'm sure someone who has built one can help with that.

the worst situations we've had so far have been the result of close encounters with power boaters ignoring the rules and passing us dangerously close, but thats been a problem forever!

good luck, build it!!!

The amount of built in flotation you'd need on a Vacationer would be significant. Small boats can have buoyancy chambers, foam, etc., but once you get into the size of a Vacationer, this becomes a logistical problem, just trying to find enough space to sacrifice for these areas. For example, a Vacationer, with a small crew and typical gear and supplies would need about 25 cubic feet of buoyancy chamber/foam, etc. This is a huge chunk of can't use it for anything else space. How big is this? Picture a 2' tall, 1' wide box that's 12' 6" long, occupying the middle of the boat. That's a 25 cubic feet. Now you can cut this up into pieces and spread it around, but it still will eat into valuable internal volume. This is the same reason larger boats don't have buoyancy chambers. It's just not practical. Larger craft use "subdivision" and compartmentalization, to control down flooding. Vacationer is on the boarder line in this regard.

I wonder if you had a half a dozen people standing on the keel if it wouldn't come up just fine.  Vacationer is WAY more boat than I would ever want, but I wonder how different it would be if it were upside down.  Also, if it were completely swamped would it float like a weekender would? 

So far from what I have seen I am really impressed with their light air abilities.  The vacs that I have sailed with at Pepin have kind of embarrassed me by walking away from me in very light wind.  As the day progressed and the wind piped up, the Vacationer also stood up to it better than I would have thought. 

Until I built my weekender I had never held a sheet and tiller in my hand.  Take some lessons, keep studying and above all go sailing as much as you possibly can.  These are cool boats.  Once you start to get the hang of it you will have more fun than you could imagine going into it.

Al

The problem with righting a Vacationer is, even with a bunch of weight (a few wet friends) on the keel, the CG is pretty close, so not much leverage for a mechanical advantage. If it had a really, really well made centerboard and this was extended, you'd maybe get her to pop back up. This is a pretty complex formula to work through, but it takes a lot of "righting arm" to lever a boat back up, once it's gone past it's point of "vanishing stability". Small boats, the weight of the skipper can do it, if he can place it far enough from the CG to gain advantage. Simply put, you'll need about the same amount of pressure (on the keel to hull joint) that it took to knock her over in the first place, plus water weight from down flooding, over coming surface tension etc., so it's a lot of pressure all added up.

Just to build on what has already been said, I have a weekender, which is tippier than a vacationer but sails pretty similarly, at least in light winds. When I go sailing in high winds, I either bring a friend with me (for ballast) or reef, or both. The weekender has never really frightened me, and I've been sailing on a vacationer and can attest to its much greater stability. If you were in a situation where capsizing wa something you needed to worry about, you would already have to be having quite an adventure, and you would already have to be sailing well outside your "comfort zone".

I was made (by my Dad) to take sailing lessons when I was a very small boy. I therefore have a good instinct for sailing, and I built the weekender not out of admiration for the design but rather for the ease of carpentry. I think I did a good job building her, but I am aware of the limitations of the basic design, which it shares with the vacationer. Nevertheless, I always enjoy sailing my little boat. If I had some advice for you, it would be this: take some sailing lessons. It doesn't matter if it's on a similar boat to your own, but in any good course you will learn how far to push the boat before it starts to get angry, and you will learn what an angry boat feels like. I don't know about you but I'd rather capsize a club boat than my own, and they expect you to do it.

Sailing lessons will do two things. First you will learn to sail. Of course, you can do this on your own boat, and you will have to learn your own boat anyway. But more importantly, you will find out if you like sailing, and if you do, (of course you will) then you will be EVEN MORE excited to build your boat! Believe me, by the time you get to the "fibreglass" part, you will need to be excited about something: I hated that part. And if you already know how to sail, it will be easier to set up the rigging the way you like. The plans show a basic set-up, but I have yet to see a boat that is not personalized in one way or another.

Good luck man. There are pros and cons to any design, and these boats have their share of "cons" for sure, but I love my boat and I feel like I know a thing or two about boats, and I know the weak points of this one (a bit pokey and not particularly weatherly) and I just don't care. I love her anyway.

I hope you build your vacationer and it changes your life.

I'm not sure sailing lessons will be all that important on a Vacationer. Yes, they're a good idea, if only to familiarize yourself with the strings and how things work, but you can also get this by sailing with an experienced skipper for an afternoon.

As most have pointed out David, if you capsize a Vacationer, you really have to try to do it, as it will bitch and moan about things long before you've taken her to the point of no return (she flops over on her side). Most folks feel uncomfortable if heeling over 20 degrees. A vacationer needs 3 times this angle before you're reached her no return point. If approaching this point (heavy heeling), you literally can't remain in the boat - you simply tumble out of the cockpit seats. At 40 degrees, the cabin sides are in the water and the cockpit is filling, so you have a pretty big hint, things aren't desirable and you still have another 20 degrees of heel before she goes "splat".

For the most part, sailing is intuitive and you'll figure out stuff pretty quickly. You'll learn how to dump wind, round up when you get scared and how truly hard it is to capsize your boat. I have to admit, I've capsized a lot of times (probably several dozen), but except for a few occasions, this was in boats that are fairly easy to capsize (death roll in a dinghy, for example). I've also capsized intentionally, simply because it was hot, I was baking in the sun and the water was an inviting 89 degrees. Unintentional capsizes are rare, very rare, in a boat the size of Vacationer. You have to get in a fight with the Jolly Green Giant and the world's largest pancake turner to screw up that bad, even if you're a novice sailor.