BYYB Forums

So, keeping the ball rolling,

I used a puzzle joint to join the two pieces of the bottom panel for my sailing canoe.  It was unbelievably easy and  seems to be effective.  All I had to do was draw freehand a sequence of tabs on one edge of one of the  panels, then after cutting that panel with my sabre saw, I laid the cut out side over the adjoining piece and traced out the cut for the other side.  I didn't go crazy making the joint perfectly tight because I wanted space for some goo to settle into.  I suppose I could have ground a slight valley over the joint,  but I wasn't interested in perfection.  I feathered the goo out a good long way and now the joint is invisible.

I may be wrong, but it looks like this type of joint would work pretty well to join the bottom of a weekender and do away with the panel joint that gets in my way more  than it should.  I really is super easy to do.  Here's a pic of what I did.

These types of "keyed" joints make the panel shorter (so does a scarf), so you have less material to work with. It's also a lot of cutting and it's of dubious value, in regard to alignment, unless CNC machined. Lastly, it has less glue surface area and this is along the end grain, which isn't the best place for a glue line.

Don't get me wrong, this type of joint can and has been used successfully, but it's labor intensive (even if fairly easy) and increases the area you need to fair, compared to other single line joints.

I do agree in that eliminating those butt block joints, used on the panels is a wise thing. It lightens the boat, makes the inside of the boat easier to clean, no stubbed toes and a more professional look.

If you do use butt blocks as panel joiners, bevel the edges at 45 degrees or more, so your toes are less offended.

I do agree with much of what you say Paul, but I found that it wasn't labor intensive and that is why I mentioned it.  I took me less than a half hour to lay out cut and fit this particular joint.  I tried this one out because I didn't want to set up and work out a scarf joint over such a long piece.  I confess that I was worried about this joint being strong enough for a weight bearing surface and unsupported, but so far it is rock solid.  I did glass the bottom inside and out which I would have done anyway because it is a quarter inch thick piece that I was going to step on.

I mentioned before that this canoe was a learning opportunity so I took some risks that I wouldn't take on a more expensive and time consuming build.  There are a few issues with the butt joints called for in the  weekender plans.  One is I noticed that it tended to flatten the area around the joint which made the hull unfair.  I didn't do anything about this, but now I believe it can be avoided.  What kind of joint would you recommend for the additional pieces that are necessary for the additional width on weekender bottoms?  The side butt blocks aren't a problem in the end, but they mess with the curve of the bottom. 

Al 

Butt blocks (I think Stevenson calls these joiners) are a very old school way of joining, but as you've noted they affect how a panel curves. A scarf is much better, but it's a problem to cut, so I use a Payson butt joint on these types of joints. I can do one in minutes.

The panels are pushed together and butted along the end grain, then I take a 7" or 9" disk sander to the seam, plowing out a shallow, concave groove about 3" on either side of the seam, feathering it out toward the outside edges. I plow down about 1/3" the thickness of the plywood. Next, I wet it out with epoxy, then lay in fabric (the amount depends on the plywood thickness). I back fill this fabric over joint area with thickened epoxy and cover with plastic and a scrap piece of wood, weight down to mash things in good.

This treatment is done on both sides of the joined panels. I usually do both sides at the same time, which saves the bother of doing this twice. It's not uncommon to have a stack of panel joints, all glued on both sides, with plastic protected spacers between and a few concrete blocks on top, holding everything down.

This joint is seam less, easy to fair and bullet proof when completed. Once you've done a few, you'll see the advantage. This said, it's easier to do a keyed joint, but I don't trust end grain bond lines and these types of joints require more fairing afterward.

It all depends on what you need and want in a joint. If it's a clean, uncluttered surface, that bends well, the butt block isn't the way to go, so a keyed joint, scarf or Payson butt joint is the ticket. Lastly a scarf can be easy with a jig. It doesn't have to be perfect, as epoxy will fill gaps and make you look like a pro, once it's under paint.

Oh Yeah!  I forgot about that one. 

I really didn't mind the extra weight or the fact that it didn't bend the way I wanted, but man it makes packing the boat more of a pita than it needs to be.  I find myself thinking about what I would do if I ever had to build another weekender.  I love my Duckie very much and would never part with her, but if I ever destroy her in an accident or something I have a list of modifications that I would make from the get go.  One of these is to use more sophisticated joints.  Also, its fun to try different things.

Al

(01-17-2014, 12:15 PM)Al Stead link Wrote: [ -> ]I love my Duckie very much and would never part with her, but if I ever destroy her in an accident or something I have a list of modifications that I would make from the get go.  One of these is to use more sophisticated joints.

What else do you have on your list? If I ever get around to building one, I might as well consider doing things right the first time.

For now I am mostly a day sailor.  I like staying overnight on the boat and cruising new water.  Because of that most of my changes involve seaworthiness and comfort in the cabin.  Also, I am strictly a solo sailor.  My wife does not like sailing and neither do my friends. 

Under seaworthiness, I would add a substantial bridge deck to reduce the flooded volume of the cockpit and add accessible storage in the cockpit.  All my hatch covers would be first and foremost watertight.  I would not cut out the forward bulkhead, instead I would mount the biggest  water tight deck plates that would fit.  Ditto on the cockpit lockers.  I would also repeat segregating the lazarette from the lockers and seat backs.  I would add a second reef to the mainsail and add roller reefing to the jib.  I have high combings on the cockpit and would increase them a little bit to add effectively more free board.  I learned the value of this on my crossing of the Mackinaw straits with 700 lbs of crew and gear aboard in a serious chop.  I would repeat the over the transom tiller. 

Under comfort, I would add 6 inches to the length of the cabin.  That would require a fair amount of effort to get it right,  but I think it is worth it for what I like to do.  To compensate for that I would add maybe 50 lbs of lead to the bottom of the keel somewhere under the mast because I will have to sit farther aft and maybe upset the trim. I would add enough height to the cabin that I could more or less sit up a bit more.  To simplify construction I would maybe square off the front of the cabin.  I would move the divider under the cockpit seats back as far as I could get away with and still get my bumpers in there for more storage in the cabin.  I will add a comfortable rail to the top of the combings so I can sit up there when I need to. 

Under performance, I would make all of my spars as light as possible, especially the mast.  I may use a tabernacle instead of the hinge.  So far I am very impressed with the performance of the lapper I made and would have one professionally made and roller reefed.  I would make the entry sharper on the stem, but I think I would other wise leave the keel alone.  The more I sail my weekender the more satisfied I become with its performance.  I have tested it with a GPS and not found it lacking for my purposes.  I have passed bigger and faster boats sailing up wind, but mostly because that skipper was more interested in what was in his glass than what was in his sails.  Still it was fun to watch him get serious when he figured out that I was going to pass him.

I will never not have a weekender.  But as you can see I will modify mine to suit my body and purpose.  The above mentioned is by no means the end of it.  The more I learn about sailing the longer the list is likely to become. 

Al

Thanks. Interesting list. Most of it would make sense for me too, since I will also be single handing, and want to sleep in the cabin.

There are lots of modifications you can envision, particularly in hindsight. Sitting headroom in the cabin of a 14' LWL boat is just asking too much, unless a big box on the deck isn't undesirable. If the sheer was raised a few inches, the roof crown increased a few inches and the cabin sides also increased a few inches, now you're getting somewhere, but this is a lot of trouble.

I think the biggest issue with most Weekenders is she appears to be a bigger boat than she is (it's still a small canoe length boat). For this reason she carries too much boob in too small a bra. If her stern was widened a number of inches (5" or more), she pick up some "bearing area", which would help support two well fed builders, Fidel the wonder dog and cooler full of beer, without dragging her butt. This is a major change, outside most backyard builder's abilities (without help).

Reducing rig windage would help her a lot, so toss the deadeyes, huge lines and massive homemade blocks in favor of internal halyards and lifts, bee holes and stropped thimbles, with eye bolts for turnbuckles and sail track instead of lasing or hoops.

Lastly, I think a real diet would help the build tremendously. Toss the butt blocks, 3M-5200 seams, chine logs, most of the keel assembly, etc. If she was a taped seam build (stitch and glue), most of these parts wouldn't be necessary, saving weight (always good). Additionally, since you don't need them, you don't have to cut them or buy and install them either, speeding up the process. The mast is way over dimensioned for its sail area, so it if scaled properly (roughly 2.75" at the heel and 2" at the head) and using birdsmouth techniques, with a 20% wall, it would be less than 10 pounds if spruce and about 12 pounds if Douglas fir (how heavy is your mast?).

Hi Paul, 

I raised the height of my cabin when I built her by two inches.  That was all that I could get out of the plywood as I laid it out for cutting.  If I were to raise it again it would only be maybe at most two more inches.  I only want to be able to hang a sling back canvas chair in there like the one in the last Wooden Boat edition.  Right now the best I can do is lean up on one elbow without banging my head on the beams.  I do have a plan in mind to mount one of those slings in the hatch way so that my head can stick up but I haven't figured out exactly how I will go about it.  When I built Duckie I was also struck by how high the cabin was so I looked at the combings to mitigate that.  I also think that the size and shape of my portlights  helped her look.  I made my combings higher and longer than the plan called for and I think that did the trick.  If I ever built a new weekender I would increase the size of the combings and take them all the way to the transom if that looked alright. 

Sorry but I'm going to keep my blocks and deadeyes.  A guy has to have some fun.  My mast is not heavier than I can easily handle but I agree with you that smaller dimensions and lighter construction would be helpful.  I've done up a half dozen birds mouth masts and I am quite impressed.  There may well be one in my future if I get bored.  I  have been thinking about thimbles for some of my tackle after reading about them recently.  You are right weekender is a little boat.  It doesn't generate enough force in the rigging to over power a healthy adult male, so blocks probably aren't needed everywhere.  For me that is part of its charm.

Here's my favourite pic of Duckie at the Lake Pepin messabout.  I think appearance elements all came together pretty well.