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First - building a Vacationer is only a dream right now, but it won't let me go.
Second - some boatbuilding experience  (17' stitch & glue kayak - a thing of beauty)
Third - new to sailing; in fact, I'm clueless.  Will take some lessons at some point.
Forth (and finally, the question) - I have a basic understanding of the "counterbalance" given by a true weighted keel.  Have some concerns about that not being a part of the weekender/vacationer.  Would it be of any help if the middle board of the keel had a 8 or 9 inch deep cut-out in it for a 4 or 5 foot length at the center of balance point on the boat, then that "hole" be filled with lead, thus, making the keel the same depth, but heavier.  I figure the filling of lead might add about 125-150 lbs of ballast.

Any engineers out there who could shed some light on if this is possible and if it would add any stability?

David Johnson
Kentucky

(07-05-2011, 08:18 AM)David Johnson link Wrote: [ -> ]Forth (and finally, the question) - I have a basic understanding of the "counterbalance" given by a true weighted keel.  Have some concerns about that not being a part of the weekender/vacationer.  Would it be of any help if the middle board of the keel had a 8 or 9 inch deep cut-out in it for a 4 or 5 foot length at the center of balance point on the boat, then that "hole" be filled with lead, thus, making the keel the same depth, but heavier.  I figure the filling of lead might add about 125-150 lbs of ballast.

I am no engineer but basic physics will tell you that you will need a very large amount of weight in the existing keel to do anything beyond giving you a warm fuzzy feeling.   The closer a weight is to the water line the less affect it has.  consider a see saw that has the fulcrum moved within a foot or two of one of the seats.  It will take a very large child to balance even a few pounds of force on the other end.  This is however not really a problem, from all reports, the weekender / vacationer are stable if unspectacular sailors.  Though you might find the various keel redesigns being discussed in other recent threads interesting.    Additional weight will do one thing for sure it will make your craft slower.    My brother once told me that new sailors were always mostly concerned with stability until they sailed thier new boat and then suddenly all they cared about was speed.  

    Over the winter I consided installing a centerboard on my Vacationer, but after running it by Paul decided to add more reefs to my sails. I find the Vacationer to be very stable, and in the past have sailed with the water over the gunnel's but always felt in control.  The Vac is not the fastest boat out there but boy is it a lot of fun and always seems to gather a crowd on launching.

As a rule I don't recommend ballasting a Weekender, though a Vacationer can handle some without any decrease in abilities. As Chris has pointed out, the very shoal nature of the Vacationer appendage means any weight added to it is just teasing the stability curve. You may feel better but the likely result is a boat with less carrying capacity.

On the modified keels I've done, most have also had other, some fairly dramatic changes, particularly in draft. With a deeper, more appropriately shaped appendage, ballast then can make significant gains on the stability curve.

In short, if you have sailing experience with your Vacationer and think she could benefit from some ballast then give it a shot or call me. If you have no experiences with Vacationer, then you're best advised to consider a retro fit later, rather then undertake changes you don't fully understand now.

I have to concur with Keith, there's more to be gained by installing reefing points. I have some at 18 inches, and 36 inches from the boom. She can run fairly safe with them. If things get REAL nasty, lower all your sails, and use your iron jib to get back to port.

Greg

It must be remembered, that these boats are protected waters (cat D) craft, which means they're aren't intended to be out in a rough slosh, but instead you should head for shore or shelter when small craft advisories are posted or soon to post. Small craft advisories are declared when sustained winds are in the 20 knots range. You should have your first reef already tucked in, by the time you reach these conditions. If you haven't you're just asking to blow out a sail, break something or risk a capsize from a sudden gust, which will be in the 30 knot range when SCA's are posted.

Thanks to all.  I'll stay tried and true to the plans.

Staying tried and true isn't necessary, but over thinking things that are much more complex then you might realize, isn't necessary either. I can think of a few dozen things I'd do to a new Vacationer build, that are in direct "violation" of the plans. Then again, considering the number of things I've violated over the years (some not exactly legal), well, you get the picture.

Ok Paul, now you've got me curious.  Since I'm just starting my Vacationer, which of the few dozen Paul mods might a guy think about doing?  The only thing I have in the works for mods right now is raising the cabin height by a few inches.


Jim

See, your talking blasphemy already . . . 'at a boy . . .

Modifications are a purely personal and certanily quite a subjective set of variables. What I would do will be very different from what you might desire. Think of it as selecting a wife; there's plenty to choose from, lots of options, but in reality only your preferences, based on your experience and desires, will lead you to a Mrs. Miller you can live with, without constant thoughts of some sort of capital crime as the ultimate escape.

In the big picture your sailing needs, the area you intended to sail frequently, your skill level as a builder and a skipper, aesthetic preferences (the prom date crap again), etc., etc., etc. all conspire to exasperate, confound and compile, you into a false sense of security, all the while these evil mental conspirators, plan to pull the rug out from under your conceptions of coolness and ultimate desires in your boat.

In short, desires (which include Vacationer modifications as well as trips to Hooters every Thursday night, when she thinks you're at bible study) are continuously evolving. As an example, I once foolishly thought I was perfect, but now completely understand that being nearly perfect is good enough. As a beginner, you're best off with the plain Jane version of whatever. As your skills grow, so do you ideas of what the ideal yacht might be.

If I built a Vacationer, I'd make it a full taped seam build and save about 30% of the little pieces that go into it and have a much lighter, stronger yacht for it. I'd use okoume for most of the structure for another 20% in weight savings over meranti and Douglas fir. I'd also change the hull shell scantlings to be more appropriate for a 13' LWL day boat (lighter still). She'd have hollow spars with internal Spectra lifts and halyards. The rig would be attached with Spectra strops and everything would be "buttoned up" to decrease windage and weight aloft (such as eliminating the turnbuckles and using below decks adjustment). The mast would rotate or I'd use luff socks, I'd also use a half wishbone and enlarge the sail plan by a considerable amount. The main sail might employ pneumatic, full length battens. The clipper knee wouldn't be installed and the deadwood assembly would be replaced with a fin and balanced spade rudder, tiller steered of course. I'd probably not install the cabin, as I haven't a need to spend any time in a 4' tall, 6' wide, 8' long plywood box in the sub tropics of Florida. If I want to sweat that bad, I'll let the other half catch me in a lie. Rather then stick build the cockpit, I'd use straight taped seam seat boxes to  save weight and have built in buoyancy chambers. Of course, the bridge deck would be a full width, 3" of closed cell foam, beer cooler and likely the very first thing I'd build. Lastly, (okay there's lots more but I'm tired) I'd have a figurehead as a throw back to the golden age of sail and it would be a bustier version of Chris Obee , maybe with fuller lips too, as I suspect he's got beer coming out of his nose about now.  :o