BYYB Forums

Hey all,

my name is Dusan Zitny ( Dušan Žitný ). I am from Slovakia. Its a small state in the centre of Europe withoud sea. My city called Ruzomberok its is located 20km far from the Dam Liptovska Mara ( http://www.nizketatry.sk/ciele/lmara/lmara.html )
I am completely new member here and  WBF. The World around water and ships interesting me. I am owner in common commercially selling inflatable boat Excersion 4 only, which I upgraded onto sailboat with auxiliary electrical engine one year ago.
You can see any pictures and video on my album there :
http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b1...nto_The_Water/
All album how i made it you can see there:
http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b1...able_sailboat/

I know, its crazy, withoud wood ( just seats ) but it works....  ;D

I have a big dream to build a small wooden schooner with cabin similar like schooner Discrete by Paul Riccelli. I saw Timmo´s Knuuttila  topic about building this one- WIP now
.
I know how it sounds. You can say : "next one shoonerman withoud experience...... ", yes you are right, but i think your experience can help me.
I am intersting by building plans of small schooner  20ft to 22ft LOD.
This one is great :
 
but its  ODay 22 converted into a schooner  withoud cabin by Paul.

I found old post from December 18, 2006,  Schooner rigget  Vacationer. Paul send his images of small schooner desing RYD-16SC

LOA - 21' 4"
LOD - 17' 4"
LWL - 16' 5"
Beam - 6' 6"
Draft - 18" (up) - 29" (down)
Sail Area - 162 sq. ft. (227 with sq. course)
Cp - .54
D/L - 103   

It will be  good for me......  : Unfortunately, his links  : http://byyb.org/cpg143/albums/userpics/1...lity=Full    and    http://byyb.org/cpg143/albums/userpics/1...lity=Full  are dead now.

Paul, please, can you help me with this ?

PS:
my topic on WBF :
Here
on  CZ  yachting.info :
Here
Here

Dusan, as it happens, I just yesterday edited the picture to reflect the modifications I have in mind. I am building the 16' 10" version of Discrete which is 6.09m (20') on deck. I think it looks better than the shorter version and it offers a small bit bigger accomodations below deck.

I have also drawn a topsail on the main, which is probably going to cause some balance problems, but it looks cooler than topsails on both masts. Paul can (and will, I assume  ) comment that.



Check my building thread, there is a lot of discussion about the modifications and other design and build decisions. It would be great to have another one being built in Europe!

http://byyb.org/forum/index.php?topic=2466.0

http://byyb.org/forum/index.php?topic=2814.0

Ahoy Timo,
many thanks for your answer.  I read your threads carefully, especialy ballast building.... And of course Paul´s cometary too.
Therefore, i had to change any requirements introduced on Wooden Boat Forum. Howerer i am fighting with myself  which final design to choose. Shall i go the ones complicated way, but  i can have more histrical looking design of hull and rigging ( privateer look )
Pacific Swift
 

Lynx
   

or modern design of fishing shooners with easy way like models :
Alden´s Malabar IV - IX,

Schooner Alabama


, eventually little bit small schooner like Alden´s
Schooner Gamecock,
 

or the  look like Comet II from Lunenburg :
 

How you can see, Gamecock and Comet II are similarly seemed  like Paul´s  ODay 22 converted into a schooner  withoud cabin .


I have to go in of these condition :
- empty weight ( trailerable waight ) 700kg, maximum 750kg,
- easy transport and use on trailer in shallow water,
- small cabin with two berth, sink and place for campig cooker, WC Porta Porty,
- 1x ( or 2x ) auxiliary electrical engine eventually exchangeable in engine  4- 5 PH
- minimal carrying capacity 4 adult persons + 2 children,
- using for Dam´s  water, for shallow water will be good, using for sea not be a precondition, but will be welcoming
- comfortable sitting in cabin not be a precondition.

You know Timo, small schooner is seeing in a few isolated ceses in  Europe. Therefore it is better for me to order make a plan of building to someone who is like Paul. Who has already experience with  small schooners.
Of course, I want to pay regular everything. Earlier than i will start  to build one i have to got  authorization from homesters office. It is important for me. So i need  the original  plan of construction.

Do you think is it possible ?

It is pity form me, Paul do not reply on my first entry and introduction.
Dušan

PS : forgive me my English

Paul will reply Zidu.  He is quite busy just now.  A new build for what you wish is better than trying to cobble up an old glass boat.  What you build you know like the back of your hand.  It makes maintaining the boat or responding to minor disasters underway much easier to deal with. Plus, there is the pride of ownership and having just what you want and not a collections of what could have beens.  Paul will be along soon.    

750kg of max trailerable weight is going to be a tough one. Especially if you need to have space for four adults and two kids at the same time.

Bolger´s Light Scooner would fit that bill, but I don´t know if you want to be out in a boat like that with two kids  :  It is definitely the lightest design I have see with a schooner rig.

Myself I thought of adapting the ballasted dagger board of Single Handed Schooner into Light Scooner to get more stability, but you might need to stay the masts if you make the boat stiffer.

Maybe Paul has something in his sleeve that would have some kind of removable ballast. Like the steel/lead daggerboard that could be put into the trunk of the car to reduce the weight on the trailer.  8)

Hi folks, thanks for the interest, though admittedly small schooners aren't especially practical craft. They can offer a lot strings to pull for a number of crew, which was the idea behind the first one.

Lets try and level the playing field a little first. Topsail schooners like the ones shown in pictures above, just can't be done (practically) in these smaller sizes. Rigs like that on Pacific Swift, Lynx or Pride of Baltimore II shouldn't be considered. It can be done, but they'll be heavy, very difficult to sail and very difficult to set up at a launch ramp, to say the least. This leaves us with the standard "fore and aft" rig of the schooner to consider. Even the topsails on Timo's boat shouldn't be considered without a long discussion on your sailing skills, habits and local sailing area.

Next are hull forms (shapes), as Timo has hinted at, it will be all but imposable to have this type of boat with the 750 kilo weight restraint. Trailering weights over this amount aren't especially difficult, nor is launching. Is there a specific reason you desire this weight limit?

Bolger's sharpie schooners will be close, but these boats are very limited in what they can do and carry. Bolger intentionally has drawn very low CE sail plans and through some clever engineering, presented them in an easy to build format. These boats would capsize with the addition of topsails or taller rigs. Also these sharpie hulls have little internal volume, they couldn't ever consider having a cabin, let alone a real cockpit. For the most part these schooners are light day boats, where everyone on board is going to get wet before the day is through. Think of them as big SunFish with a schooner rig.

So, lets address your needs;
(- empty weight ( trailerable waight ) 700kg, maximum 750kg,) this is possible, but you'll have to sacrifice most everything else about the design, such as the cabin, load carrying capacity, accommodations, etc.
(- easy transport and use on trailer in shallow water,) This is possible, though it will likely be at the heavy end of the spectrum. For example, Timo's stretched version of Discrete is over 1,500 kilos. It's still very trailer able, but it's no row boat.
(- small cabin with two berth, sink and place for campig cooker, WC Porta Porty,) Two single berths or something else? Discrete has a V berth for 2. Asking for much more then this in a boat of this length is very difficult. There just isn't enough internal volume to accommodate 4 sleeping adults easily.
(- 1x ( or 2x ) auxiliary electrical engine eventually exchangeable in engine  4- 5 PH) I would attempt to dissuade your desires for electric propulsion. It works only for short distances and at quite reduced speeds. It costs considerably more then a more conventional engine and it weighs a lot more then a conventional engine.
(- minimal carrying capacity 4 adult persons + 2 children,) Again, it appears you are looking for a larger boat. 4 adults and 2 children is a well designed 25' boat, not an 18'.
(- using for Dam´s  water, for shallow water will be good, using for sea not be a precondition, but will be welcoming) Unlike Phil Bolger's schooners, Discrete can take to open water without concern. There is a shoal draft option on this hull, but as yet not one drawn up for the schooner rig.
(- comfortable sitting in cabin not be a precondition.) Discrete has sitting headroom in the cabin

In the end, which design you select is one of the first difficult decisions you'll face. Considering your requirements, you may want to consider a custom design, maybe a semi custom design or modification of a stock design. The sharpie hull type schooners are light, but you'll need a 35' boat to have a serviceable cabin with all the accommodations you desire. Designs like the Florance of Oakland or America Junior will meet some of the requirements, but take a good look at the weight of these boats. For example America Junior has more ballast alone then your total weight requirement. Florance of Oakland is nearly as heavy, even though she's considerably shorter. Neither boat, in spite of being twice the immersed volume of Discrete, can accommodate 4 adults and 2 children.

Greetings,

I think half the battle in the look of a schooner is using the right sails ...

This Mackinaw Schooner is about the same weight that you want, and therefore there are no accomodations ...


http://www.flickr.com/photos/27406825@N0...475479902/


http://www.flickr.com/photos/27406825@N0...475479902/

Cheers,
Tom

Zidu, is the 750kg based on the European light trailer limit? If that is the case, it also includes the trailer meaning you have only ~600kg for the boat. That would be next to impossible.

I think there is small misunderstanding in Paul´s post. If I understood Zidu correct, he wants to be able to sleep two and only have 4+2 people for day trips. That shouldn´t need a 25' boat.

Paul, I think the extended Discrete ST is only 1320kg. The figure 1528 is in one of the plans, but I think other figures in that sheet are wrong as well. I will come back to that in my building thread. Also the sitting headroom in the cabin is a little controversial.

Zidu, I must say that all your thoughts, except for the trailering part, have been part of my thought process. My dreaming started with America Junior in 1988, developed through different phases to Bolger's Light Scooner and Single Handed Schooner and I eventually ended up with Paul's Discrete, which I decided to extend a bit as mentioned. I think your decision boils down to two questions:

1. Is 750kg an absolute limit? If so, your only choice is "unballasted dinghy" with schooner rig. At max, it could have a ballasted dagger board like Lightning or Single Handed Schooner to stow it in the trunk of the car.

2. If you can go over 750kg you have to decide if you want to get wet or have a comfortable cruiser. For the latter, you have another option, a miniature keel boat like Discrete, which is 1215kg and with the shoal draft and a level keel shoe should be trailerable, although not a boat I would like to put in and out on a daily basis. The unstayed Light Scooner wins in that respect hands down. As said, this has not been a part of my equation since I will moor my boat at my own property and/or use a slip in the city marina.

Greetings all,

I always liked John Atkin's "Florence Oakland" ... 22.5 ft ... Clipper bow, springy sheer, dead eyes, nice gaff angles, sitting headroom, sleeps two, etc.  But I generally like rounded cabin fronts better.


http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Photos...index.html
http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Articl...index.html

Unfortunately, Florence carries almost 700kg of ballast, which means the rest of the boat mush weigh twice that again, or at least 2,000 kg total.

The drawings for America Jr, by William Atkin look nice, but I have yet to see a photo of her under sail.

Cheers,
Tom

(11-24-2010, 04:55 AM)tombayus link Wrote:The drawings for America Jr, by William Atkin look nice, but I have yet to see a photo of her under sail.

While waiting for a real one, here is the model I made to keep myself motivated  ;D