BYYB Forums

Hello to all, someone me can help to obtain the technical information of length pinches etc to be able to construct one p c in europa of an engineer i've a lot of problems with the permisions thank's ??? ??? ??? ??? ???

A PC may fall under EU guidelines, in which case I can tell you it can't pass without major revision. On the other hand it may be small enough to slide under the EU guidelines, I'm not sure and would have to look it up.

In Finland you can build anything for your own use. Own use is defined as "cannot be sold in five years and needs to be actually used by you".

If you need the CE certificate, no private person can afford it. Even small businesses can not afford it, but it is only needed if you plan to market a product.

Greetings palma de mallorca,

The legal crap can be found here ...
English http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexU...25:EN:HTML
Spanish http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexU...25:ES:HTML
... and is really quite lame as the law is not very specific.  For instance ...

Quote:3. INTEGRITY AND STRUCTURAL REQUIREMENTS
3.1. Structure
The choice and combination of materials and its construction shall ensure that the craft is strong enough in all respects. Special attention shall be paid to the design category according to section 1, and the manufacturer's maximum recommended load in accordance with section 3.6.

What does strong enough in all respects mean?

Quote:3.4. Openings in hull, deck and superstructure
Openings in hull, deck(s) and superstructure shall not impair the structural integrity of the craft or its weathertight integrity when closed.
Windows, portlights, doors and hatchcovers shall withstand the water pressure likely to be encountered in their specific position, as well as pointloads applied by the weight of persons moving on deck.

What does water pressure likely to be encountered in their specific position mean?  Wow.  I have never seen such squishy rules.

I found this web site ... http://users.skynet.be/sky34301/cert.html ... which includes a much more robust description of how to get your boat exempted from the regulations ...

Quote:Design and Construction - DIY Craft

Text from RECREATIONAL CRAFT DIRECTIVE AND COMMENTS TO THE DIRECTIVE COMBINED

(g) craft built for own use, provided that they are not subsequently placed on the Community market during a period of five years;

The exclusion in (g) concerns craft built by their future user, provided that they are not placed on the EEA market within five years of being put into service. This does not preclude the subcontracting, by the builder, of specia1ists in certain aspects of the fitting-out of the boat, for example electrical or electronic engineers. A kit boat bought by its end-user, from the kit boat manufacturer, not completed in accordance with the kit boat manufacturer’s instructions (i.e. modified) but to the ‘desires’ of the end-user is considered to be a ‘boat built for own use’. If, for whatever reason, a boat built for own  use is intended to be placed on the Community market, whether completed or partly completed, within the five-year period, then certification by a person or persons fulfilling the role of manufacturer would be required in a similar manner to (f) above. These persons would take the responsibility for the appraisal of the design, construction and any necessary modification of the boat. This appraisal, with regard to compliance with essential requirements of the directive, involves the procedures necessary for conformity assessment.

NB: A member of the general public building his own boat (in his garage or garden, for example) from materials bought on the open market is deemed to be ‘building a boat for his own use’. This boat lies outside the scope of the directive and does not require compliance with the essential requirements and thus CE marking. If, for whatever reason, this situation changes, then the provisions detailed above would be seen to apply.

It should be made clear that a private person who enters into a contractual arrangement with a professional company, yard or individual constructor to build a one-off boat (bespoke) is deemed to have entered into an arrangement where there will be a transfer of ownership. Such a boat is deemed to fall under the directive and will have to comply with the essential requirements of the directive and applicable conformity assessment procedures. Reference is made to text expanding Article 4.

Boats built for own use have the concept that a person is building his own boat and not having it built by others.

Note 1 :- The five year rule starts when the craft is first put to use and not necessarily when the craft is completed. If a hull was fitted with an engine, then placed in the water and cruised away from the hull manufacture/builder by the new owner, this could be construed as "first put to use".

Note 2 :- Note the 2nd to last paragraph of the text above. If you purchase a part complete craft to fit out yourself (shell with or without engine. sailaway, ballasted/lined out etc, etc.) then the manufacturer/builder must supply an Owners Manual and a Declaration of Conformity (Annex 3a  "sold for completion by another party") to that stage of completion of build.

The web page had a link to this document ...
http://users.skynet.be/sky34301/uploads/...0Craft.doc
... which you need to fill out.  It is a Declaration of Exclusion that you intend to build the boat just for your own use.

So the non-authoritative answers as best as I can tell (I am not a lawyer) are ...

If you pay Paul to build it for you, then Paul has to supply the CE certificates, and he will not be able to because the boat was not designed with the regulations in mind.

If you build the boat yourself for your own use and keep it for at least 5 years after launching, then no documentation is required except for the above Declaration of Exemption, which explains that you intend to build the boat yourself for your own use and intend to keep it for at least 5 years after launching.

Hope that helps,
Tom

I have a design in custom production in the EU currently. Getting through all the new EU hoops was interesting, but not unmanageable. I could get another through the process easier if I had too, but I do have issues some of the requirements, so I don't plan on it unless commissioned.

As a builder, I wouldn't be able to offer this design (any Stevenson design) as a production run (no matter how limited) without EU "conformity", which should be covered in the design stage and adhered to in the build stage.

Since I have an affinity against such rules, many of which seem propagated by idiots, I'll probably never design another EU certified craft again. To give you an idea of how ridiculous some of these rules are, you couldn't build a typical sharpie hull and get EU conformity. You'd have to fatten up the beam and likely increase the freeboard, just to comply. Most of Phil Bolger's designs wouldn't qualify either, because, you know, he was such a quack.

The blanket formulas that cause this form of ridiculousness, are never effective and when circumvented, by clever designers (think Fastnet '79) often generate unsafe vessels, though fully in compliance. The moment you let lawyers and politicians help develop these rules (which is what happened in the latest set at the EU), no good can result. Another example in EU compliance yachts, should have their complete wiring systems ripped out upon entry to the USA for resale. This is simply because the EU says they can use the cheaper and smaller diameter non-tinned, marine sheathed wire, while noted American standard societies recommend fully tinned wire of the larger AWG gauge set. In fact, EU compliant yachts have two wiring harnesses, those for the US market (where 80% of their sales are) and the rest of the world (except Australia which accepts AYBS standards).

I think they do this just to be different, because the outside of EU vendors supplying equipment, have mostly AYBS compliance and all use pre-tinned wire.

To answer the original question, the "sole use exemption" should cover your needs for title and registration Palma.

My plan is just to build the boat and sail it! No paperwork for certificates or exemptions, because a boat this small doesn´t even need to be registered in Finland.

All that crap is applied only if you plan to SELL the boats. It is supposed to protect the idiot buyer who knows nothing about boats but wants to own and use one  ???

In Montana nonmotorized boats are not required to be registered or have hull numbers.  Boats under 12 feet can have small electric trolling motors and still need not be registered.  I will get a hull number and register mine in case I want to tow it to Minnesota or some other less sensibly relaxed state and go sailing.  Getting a hull number might also aid in recovery if someone ever stole the boat.  The main draw back to getting a hull number s they require it to be on the bow in good sized black letters and they will clash with the paint scheme.

Thanks to all it has served of great help he was not thinking that after 5 years it could sell the project. thank you