BYYB Forums

Have any of you designed, or seen a design for, a small sailboat;

11' to 13'
wood or wood/epoxy
self righting or capsize proof
no dagger or lee board
fairly dry cockpit
no hiking out needed to sail

Of course it should look like a million bucks and sail like a cup contender.

Welsford's Tread Lightly http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw/tre.../index.htm

http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/tre.../index.htm



Of course, I have to ask why you are limiting the boat to 11 to 13 feet?

Thanks for the suggestion Scott. I do like Welsford's designs. I am considering ordering his design for Swiftsure. It appears to have many of the features I have outlined. There isn't a lot of information about it though. I also have no idea how stable or self righting it would be.
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw/swi.../index.htm

I also like Paul Riccelli's RYD-12.10 design. It has a drop board though and is probably a bit more spirited then my suggested ideas. His description of it states, "She's unballasted (as all small day boats should be) and easy to right in the event of a capsize.", so perhaps my original suggestions are unrealistic? That's what this topic is aiming for though. Ideas, suggestions and corrections if warrented.

I limited the boat to that length to keep the size and so cost down. How about we relax the length idea a bit and say up to 17?

RYD-12.10 is my SeaFin design and a 14' LOD, shallow V bottom, sprit boomed, knock about, Bermudian rigged, dayboat (okay say that again real fast). It will plane off and provide spirited performance if you want or can be sailed easily and safely. This would be the boat you want if stepping up from a beginners boat and desiring a little more performance, but still in a stable format.

I could stick a fin under her, but the draft would go from about 6" (board up) to a couple of feet, which then changes the shoal nature of the little boat. I also could place ballast in the fin to help her stability curve, possibly making a self righting craft after a capsize, but if she flooded, she sink like a stone, with the ballast dragging her to the bottom.

This wasn't the original intent of the design. The idea was an easy to build daysailer, with built in floatation chambers, that was very easy to sail, either lazily or fast, which could be easily righted, easily rigged and had comfortably wide side decks to keep the boat dry and your butt planted.



http://www.messing-about.com/photopost/d...10-med.jpg


Swiftsure looks all the much a difficult boat to sail without several reasonably experienced crew members to bail you out on the string tending duties. I would expect you need at least 4 to sail her, one at the helm, one working the port side braces and course sheets, one working the starboard braces and course sheets and another working the main and jib sheets.

Terry's "design brief" is typical of most in the early stages of selecting a design. Picking a design that most suits a prospective builder/owner is very difficult. It becomes more difficult as you gain sailing experience and your needs become more refined.

My recommendation is to make lists. A perfect world list, where the water is always warm, the winds always between 8 and 12 knots and boats don't ever capsize. Then the real world list, which includes prioritizing the things most desired. Can you live with a center/daggerboard if the boat will stand up after a knock down? Not hiking out means you'll be relegated to displacement speeds most likely, so the double digit speeds of RYD-12.10 on plane, would be imposable, 5 MPH would be the best you could ask for. Initial stability usually is at the expense of ultimate stability, so which will receive the higher priority a stiff boat initially, or one that heels with gusts, but pops back up when it lets you go.

These are tough questions and can only be answered by the person doing the list. Some real soul searching is required and honest assessments of what is most important in your next boat.

I've recently gone through this with Craig Gleason. Ask him how may teeth he has left, after our "whittling" process, which is all but complete now. Also ask about the results of these honest answers he's had to provide himself, in regard to the design.

Paul thanks again for your willingness to freely give information, that I am sure people hire you and pay for. I started this topic with the idea of stimulating conversation about dream boats and ideas. I also think it will help me decide on my next boat.

My choice for a first boat was made from the criteria of a smaller, safer, stable Stevenson design. I want to teach my daughter, age 7, to sail. Speed was not a factor, the support that this forum offers was, so I chose the Triad. I also liked the idea that it was designed with rowing and a small motor as options.

It seems that I am still stuck with my original specifications and have only expanded the criteria from it being a Stevenson’s design to include any design. I will take your advice and look over the things I desire in a boat with the idea being a boat for me not a boat to teach my 7 year old to sail.

The idea of ballast adding to the potential disaster of the boat sinking is enough to rule that out. I still like the idea of no dagger board but that would mean parking it off shore and wading or swimming as the size, of the boats in question, rule out adding a dinghy. My prejudice against dagger boards comes from a fear of possible hull damage caused by the dagger board hitting something submerged as opposed to the thought that a keel might skid over the same.

Please keep in mind that my actual knowledge of sailing and experiences are somewhat limited. I have sailed in 2 small boats, one just over 8 feet and the other a hobby cat type, and one 20 foot boat where I was given some lessons while on vacation. In all cases the areas I sailed in were very calm, protected lakes. When I read that sentence I have to stop and wonder what business I have even building a boat.

I will spend more time considering the ideas you and Scott have shared and hopefully others will share. Come on people tell us what your idea of a dream boat is! (I make that statement with full knowledge that some of you may take that the wrong way.)

I second Paul's thoughts on Swiftsure. Nice to look at but not something to learn to sail on. It also doesn't fit within your length limits. Now, if you drop the self-righting requirement your list of boats that fit your criteria broaden a lot more and can include some very good boats.

I would highly recommend you consider a catboat as it fits your requirements rather well and is a great boat to take kids out in. First, the beamy catboat is not self righting but it is a very hard boat to capsize. It can be done but it would take a whole series of unfortunate events. Second, the beam also gives the catboat incredible stability and a roominess which allows kids to roam around the boat freely even if it is to sit on the leeward seats. On my Pocket Cruiser my kids could roam wherever they wanted as long as they kept clear of the tiller and mainsheet. Third, catboats sail flat which is a big consideration with kids and wives...just a lot more comfortable for people not used to sailing and even some who are used to sailing. Fifth, a catboat with its simple rig (1 sail) is a wonderful boat for kids to learn on and a very comfortable boat for adults to sail (don't need a drink holder as you will always have a free hand!).

I built a Pocket Cruiser, sold it when I moved, and then built a C12 (12' catboat) by bateau.com. If I were to build a new catboat today I would definitely look at Welsford's Houdini. It has a nice sharp entry on the bow which would handle waves well. It is also big enough to campcruise 2 which would be a wonderful activity with your wife or one of the kids. Throw in a tent for camping on the bank and you can take the whole family for a cruise. Not bad for a 13' boat! I would definitely choose the Houdini over Tread Lightly BTW.

Houdini:


My C12 catboat. The V bottom is really an improvement over flat bottomed boats with this much beam btw.

Terry,
There are literally hundreds of self promoted, unproven designs available out there. Some look to be fantastic but since they havn't actually been built, they are just that designs.
The world of small craft sailing boats is an extremely competitive world with some very difficult to handle, let alone build, highly competitive designs with state of the art rigging and sail designs. They are expensive and not for the novice.
There are some well proven, very competitive, easily built and easy to learn to sail for a youngster that are designed by well qualified, well proven designers that are quite affordable to build and rig.

But>>>>>You have to be realistic about what you expect and what you actually want to have and build and what its intended use is going to be.
I've been teaching little folks how to build small boats and to learn how to sail them and manage them when things go wrong for years. There are some boats that I strongly recommend for consideration based upon several facts.

These facts are pretty basic.
The youngster needs to know how to swim and float first and foremost. Not a distance swimmer but to respect the water and to know to some degree their own limitations and to not panic when they get dumped into the water.
The boat will capsize, and it will probably have either a dagger board or centerboard or leeboard or it will not perform well under sail.
It doesn't need ballast if designed correctly and can be shallow draft.
It can have a number of different rigs, all of which are totally suitable to learn with.
All of them will have the ability to float upright filled with water and be bailed out easily with the gunnels out of the water when floating. They will have tillers and simple rigging. None of them will be non-capsizable.
(It is part of learning to sail and handle a small boat to learn how to right it, bail it out and keep on going.) Believe me, the kids learn to respect what the boat will and won't do by pushing the envelope while under control and then to exceed that so they can learn what to do when it happens. Otherwise they are bound to get in trouble and will be exposed to a lot more danger than if they learn on a well designed, balanced and safe design with flotation.

I would recommend that you at least consider from B&B Yachts the "Spindrift 10 "
http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/spin.htm Many sizes and variations available from a well respected and very knowledgeable designer with many well proven designs that have lots and lots of them in the water.

It is easy to build, it looks fantastic, it is great to sail, row or use under power, either gas or electric. And it is a real blast to learn to sail in for a young person or novice adult. And it is safe! And can be extremely competitive with a little fine tuning and experience.

Also the Salt Bay Skiff from Wooden Boat Magazine. Great little learn to sail boat for kids and they can contribute to building it too. It is an easy and affordable small boat. Also a hoot to learn to sail. And a good performer. The lee board is totally practical and managable for a young person to deal with. I have 5 year old and 7 year old nephews that built a pair of them (with Dad and Uncle's help) that have spent an entire Fall learning about sailing and rowing in them. They are now in the Southern part of the USA sailing them in lakes as they Discover America and get home schooled while along the way.

A bit nicer, a little more of a challenge to the builder, and a really nice boat would be the Shellback Dinghy, again from Wooden Boat Magazine. A little more advanced but still a great boat to learn to sail in and a great rowing dingy. Not so great under power though cuz you need to have it balanced and keep the transom out of the water for good performance.
But again, lots of them built, all good performers, can be as dressy as you like or just a "plain Jane" sleeper.

All of these are light weight, easy to handle and sail. All are easily righted by even novice, lightweights once they learn what to do.

But these are quite a ways beyond the Stevenson's basic home built boats. Not to degrade the designs of Peter Stevenson in any way. But these were designed to teach novices to sail and be good handling boats with very capable and proven records. Also with good plans and documentation on being able to successfully build them. All of them can be finished off with as much brightwork as you wish to make them showpieces if you so desire. But the main thing is that all of them are well proven and successful beyond question. That in my mind equates to peace of mind, and some assurance that you are not fighting an unknown to get it to work. They are designed with the young learner and the more capable novice to learn how sailing can be when it is easy to learn.

Just my 2 cents worth but I totally respect a lot of the other suggestions as well. Just find out how many have actually been built and if the builders have been happy with them. And how successful is the designer with the design you are looking at. Lots of them look great on paper but fall somewhat short when it comes to actually building one. Lots of them offer precious little in the way of a good set of plans that you can actually build from. And lots of them are bloody expensive for no real actual performance background or record.

So have fun, but think it out from many different aspects, no such thing as the perfect boat for all uses. So get a good proven design with a good record and following. You will be much happier in the long run.

This is fantastic! YOur suggestions. ideas and advice are wonderful. Thanks!

I must confess that my original, suggested details were those of a dotting older father. One that suffers from the idea of keeping his daughter totally safe and, given my current health, my coffee in my cup. Both are a bit unrealistic and betray the true nature of sailing. I can still remember my first capsize. It was more fun then anything else. My daughter was taught to swim at age 4 and does a much better back stroke then I ever managed. I grew up in Minnesota so swimming was something you learned early. Boating and boat safety were also learned young. I do miss those lakes. I don't miss the winters or the misquitos though.

Ok so we have decided to get rid of; the length limit, the self righting and won't capsize requirements as well as no dagger, lee or center board. I probably should have started this topic about a month before ordering the plans for the triad. I hope my choice of the Triad will suffice through the next summer as I doubt I could build a second boat before next winter. Besides as my wife says, I'm not building a boat it's a piano. I guess we can always add a sound board or keys and a synthesizer and park it in the family room. (Just kidding. It's a boat. Just an over built one.)

Terry P. Here is a idea you might want to look into. One of my boats is a Bay Hen, the boards are spring loaded. You pull the boards up with a small line. When you release the line the boards go down. If you happen to hit something with the board it will simply come up. Folding aft into the sole of the boat with no damage. The only way I know you could get any damage would be to back over something. Which I haven't doon YET. I can't back very well under sail. For that matter I cant go forward as well as I would like sometimes, but I enjoy trying. Just my 2 cents worth.
Bud

I have raced 16 footers with daggar boards and hit things at full speed with no damage. It really isn't a big deal as under sail "full speed" isn't that much if a board case is built properly. Not a worry I would have that would make me not choose a design. Hope this helps.