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I know a lot of folks alter their designs and do some customization.

What i was wondering was, has anyone ever taken a vacationer and modified the design from a flat bottomed boat to a v-bottom or multichined hull, adding some internal ballast, and making the craft a little more substantial.

After speaking with several folks who love their vacationer but lament the fact that it is a small water only/fair weather only craft, I was wondering if their interest in the boat might have lasted longer with this sort of alteration in design.

I am not a boat designer and have no intentions attempting such a vast redesign myself.

I was just wondering if anyone had thought of the idea.

I know it trades convenience and beach-ability for other traits.

Paul Ricelli, any thoughts one way or the other on this?

Thanks,

Dave G.

Ahoy David,

Our modifications are probably as extensive as anyone has yet to do. and we may regret the changes we made once the boat is on the water. I rather think, however, that will not be the case.

Some modifications are OK, and some are not; at least that's my understanding. Whether or not the changes you propose fall into the last category or not, I would not be qualified to say.

Our boat is considerably larger than the standard Vacationer; at least that's what Craig Gleason has said. Never having seen a Vacationer, I can only surmise what the differences might be. Our cockpit is larger because of how we built it; we did add some 18 inches or so to the length of the sole. We have a very massive keel, compared to the original Stevenson design. Paul Riccelli was kind enough to design the keel, and he used several mathematical formulae to come up with a design.

I remember well climbing over the boat, taking all sorts of measurements so Paul could have an accurate picture of everything.

All this leads me to suspect that alterations below the waterline tend to fall into a critical category. Changes in sail areas probably are second in critical categories. That's not to say, however, what you propose cannot or should not be done.

From my limited perspective, much of what happens seems to be a balancing act when it comes to design and functionality. A racer is probably not as stable as a standard boat; the keels are radically different. Certainly, a racer is not built for comfort.

We went for the comfort and stability. I often tease Miss Pat about her need to go for the comfort in any situation. I rather suspect she has persuaded me that comfort is a rather good idea. I can tell you, however, that I am never comfortable if she is uncomfortable. We have a saying at our house, "If Mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy." I rather tend to live or die by that saying whatever the case may be.

Speaking of design, Paul Riccelli just sent me a design he's done which looks very similar to what you may be proposing. Paul's design carries two masts. He may want to talk about his design and maybe even post a photo or two.

Now all of this brings to me to the point I wanted to make. When Paul Riccelli does post, just tell him what you want the boat to do, and he will tell you what can be done. That's the approach we took with our boat.

David the changes you are pondering have run through my head as well. Jim is correct inthat these changes are critical and change the hydrodynamics of the entire boat. While the physical changes are simple enough to make the rig and sailing properties are grossly changed by the hull shape. If the V-hull or multi chine configuration are desired there are much better boats than these that are designed with those parameters already there. Peter designed these boats to be fast and easy to build on a small investment. While some have lasted for decades the design life of these boats was never published. Left in the elements most require extensive time to maintain. Paul and I are working on an updated Friendship design that incorporates some of your ideas albeit in a more modern fashion. You might find a drawing or two by searching the past posts for our names. Happy building. 8)

I redesigned my weekender plans to be more of a v-bottom and rounded shape. I was going to make it a strip construction like a canoe I had previously built but chickened out at the last minute and stuck to the plans. I'd still like to try it sometime though.

I can't tell you the amount of information, across several engineering disciplines, you have to completely understand, before attempting a major change to the underwater areas of any boat.

Simply moving a keel, altering it's profile or configuration can have huge repercussions that seem to have little to do with the keel itself. The same is true of major rigging changes, particularly in relationship with the underwater areas.

Changing a flat bottomed boat to a V, will increase it's displacement, probably by quite a bit if you follow common trends in yacht design. This means the boat will need to weigh more to settle down on her "sailing lines" properly. This could be a good thing as you'll likely need to ballast her to do this. Okay, where to put the ballast? Much ballast added to the sides of the current keel will strain the fasteners holding it to the plywood bottom. On Jim's redesigned keel, I asked him to install structural floors and huge through bolts, partly to address the increased loads the new assembly would place on the original structure.

In short, sure you can alter the bottom of a Vacationer or other flat bottom craft for a V configuration, but you should have a very clear idea of the forces involved. I know most would at least consult a designer, much like a major addition to a house, but some might just "give it a try" and hope for the best.

In this vain I'm reminded of a Weekender that had a radical new rig placed on her, by an experienced sailor and a person with a fair understanding of the principles of design. She capsized on her maiden trip away from the launch ramp (I'm not picking on you Stuart). I'm not sure if the boat has been tried with the new (schooner) rig since that eventful day, but am just using it as an example of what can happen if you don't get the elements "balanced" properly.

Speaking of balance, you'd think that there are codes, guidelines and formulas that can calculate the precise centers and balance points of the variables, when designing a yacht. Nope, there aren't. Much of the design work, particularly the balance of the helm in regard to the rig placement over the underwater appendages is a matter of experience and educated guessing. There are some tried and true opinions held by designers about balance, but nothing is written in stone. So much so that America's Cup boats are built in two's and three's. The first one tests some ideas and theories, the second incorporates changes from the first and the third is the combined modifications they've found on the first two, incorporated into a new, better yacht. This is actually the cheapest way to do it. A bit of computer software designed to predict all the possible variables would actually cost more and take longer to develop!

There's an old saying among yacht designers. "We have nothing more to sell then our opinion", which means they've made a real good guess about certain things and are hoping for the best come launch day.

I've tried to attach an image of the boat Jim mentioned. It's about the size of a Vacationer (around 18' on deck), but has much more room and is much more capable, especially in rough water.



This boat is available as a round bilge, in one of severial building methods. Also as a multi chine (shown) as a taped seam or ply over frames build. Rig choices are fraction sloop, cutter (not recommended), ketch and schooner (the coolest looking and the one shown).

RYD-14.11's point of positive righting stability is 138 degrees making her virtually uncapsizable. With her healthy D/L ratio she is also very comfortable in rough seas. Her sail area is moderate, but light air options are available (typical of multi masted boats) to increase her SA/D ratio.

Thanks Paul,

As I stated in my previous post, I personally have no intentions of altering the hydrodynamics of my plans. I have not learned the skill.

I was just curious if anyone who had the skill had done so.

I like the look of your design.

How is a schooner rig on a boat that small as far as single handing?

Thanks,

Dave G.

Any boat can be set up for single handling. I use to sail a 63' wooden ketch all over the Caribbean solo.

RYD-14.11SC has a loose fore, so the sheets will have to be manned on a tack. The jib can have a boom (dotted line) if less then 100%, which in concert with the mainsail make both self tending in a tack. So, you need only tend the sheets on the foresail. For more performance, you'll want to use a bigger jib, which means losing the boom and then you'll have to set two sheets per tack, but this isn't a difficult task after you've done it a few times.

The nice thing about rigs like this is you can back the boat up, say out of a slip, without a motor. It requires some practice, but is relatively simple with this keel and rig combination.

Reefing options are numerous as are hoisting options. This is typical of multi mast boats. At each reef, the CE moves slightly forward, which is just what you want in building wind strengths.

Sailing under a full hoist foresail alone, in 15 knots of wind, she'll just about do hull speed and balance perfectly. With a reefed foresail only (doused main and jib), she can carry on without being particularly over pressed in 30 knots with gusts to 35. This is a full gale and you'd by comfy. The motion would be getting nasty, but most boats have would have you heaving lunch well before this.

The original version of this boat was a sloop, which had a clipper bow (boards and all). I've never been much of a clipper bow fan on small craft, so this one sports a spoon bow, which is lighter and unencumbered with garnish.

Do you have any pictures of that boat being built? Any finished pictures?

a.

I do have some construction photos, but I'm not much on keeping albums, so I'll have to dig them out of a box. I got a Christmas card about 5 years ago with her sailing on it, maybe the other half has it stowed in a box (she saves everything). Of course it'll be a scanned image as it was PDE (Pre Digital Era).