BYYB Forums

I ordered the weekender DVD and plans for the vacationer on the 10th with paypal. On about the 14th I e-mailed my 3rd and I will add unanswered mail to Stevenson projects. The first two I sent before ordering, but so many people have built them felt some what comfortable. I get the box on the 18th which I believe to be a descent timely response, but never received any indication from Stevenson projects saying yes we have your order and working on it or just some thing.

Having not completely read the plans and only watched peaces of the video I already have questions. In the weekender video they don’t cover the keel with cloth and only layout clothon the hull. On the vacationer plans it looks like you use mat and cloth but do cover the keel. Is this so and would any one know why?

Brian

Ahoy Brian,

Don't do it! Don't do it!
Forget the mat and forget covering the keel,
unless of course, you want to sing the famous refrain,
"Heartaches by the number, trouble by the score."

For those who may be uninformed or just plain oblivious,
we're talking Ray Price here.

Undoubtedly, you have heard of the famous BYYB pirate, Black Crabbyappleton.
He covered his keel and now both he and keel are rotten to the core.

Brian,

I am by no means an expert boat builder so I will limit my advice on boat building to this...

1-There are many who post to this forum that are experts, though they probably are to humble to admit it.

2-Do a search of the forum and read past posts about the boat you are building or the boat part you're making. (I have spent many late nights enjoying the information on this forum)

3-Ask your questions, be patient waiting for responses, then ask more questions if your still unclear.

4-Don't be offended if someone calls you a procrastinator and suggests you go make sawdust they are trying to help. (Fear of screwing it up cause me to stall far to long. So far I haven't made a mistake that I couldn't fix)

5-Ignore or forgive me if I ramble on to long or offer obvious advice. (I suffer from a common condition of having more time and enthusiasm then I should.)

I am not glassing the keel, on the boat I am building, after reading many posts on the subject. (Can you believe you had to read through all the rest of that to get this answer to your question?)

i did what the plans called for which was to just paint the keel. sure i rub the paint off by the end of each season but a little sand paper and a fresh coat of paint on the bare spots and and it is like new. i have not noticed any serious damage to the wood.

congrats on getting your plans so fast. i ordered a set of vacationer plans this spring and they still have not arrived. i have sent many e-mails inquiring about what is the hold up. just like you, i have not had a single reply. i am tempted to just give up.

When the Stevensons designed the Vacationer, Polyester resins, fiberglass mat were more commonly used to give strength and protection to the wood beneath it. In the case of the keel where it was only covered by the glass, it became obvious to many builders that had glass ed their keels that they were having problems. Impacts would cause cracks to occur that were not obvious and moisture got in beneath the glass where in most of the more Northern climates froze in the off season. That caused more expansion of the underlying solid wood than would occur normally with seasonal differences in humidity and temps. The result was that the expansion caused more cracking and more moisture allowed to get beneath the glass. Since you couldn't see it, you didn't know it was there doing its damage. Along comes the thaw and the wood begins to decay. Then refreeze, thaw, freeze, thaw, etc. Pretty soon the keel had rot pockets and in a lot of cases extensive damage which still wasn't noticable unless you really looked for it. Once it got severe enough to notice the damage was really extensive and in most cases required removal of the glass, cuting out all of the rotted areas and then splicing and fitting in replacement material. Not a fun job! :roll:

So, think about the moisture content of a piece of plywood, glass it and leave it outside. Not much change in it over the seasons because the plywood is stable and doesn't swell or contract much with temperature and humidity changes. Not then, think about the solid wood that makes up the keel, stem, etc. It swells and contracts with temperature and humidity changes and in particular with freeze and thaw cycles and exposure to the weather. Glass it and the glass will develop hairline cracks as the wood swells. The cracks will for the most part disappear when the wood shrinks and unless you really look carefully will not be obvious. But they are still there. Now the moisture has a way to get to the wood beneath it. Let it go thru a freeze thaw cycle or just sit during the off season exposed to the temp and humidity changes and you have the basis for the problems.

Far better to allow the wood to breath and expand/contract with just paint over it. Anything that happens is not hidden, it becomes noticable quickly with just a reasonable inspection. So you fix it, paint it and go sailing.

The glass really isn't there to protect the substrait, it is there primarily to make plywood easier to finish and to be able to maintain that finish easier. Paint expands and contracts with most woods, except for epoxy coated woods. The epoxy doesn't expand or contract with the swelling of the wood. But it does bond the fiberglass better to the plywood than does any of the polyester resins other than perhaps vinylester. But vinylester is another story.

I don't know of anyone that uses mat over plywood and polyseter resins any more. It just isn't worth the hassle. A good layer of 5-6 oz glass with epoxy or vinylester resin filling the weave and building up the surface will give you a great finish if the prep work is sound. Most will use epoxy, it is more compatable to use with the materials we build with, it is more stable and with some little care can produce potentially smooth as glass finishes. But they can take more work.

Read some of the posts from the past regarding materials, finishing, glass and epoxy choices. You will learn a lot and get a wide variety of opinions from those that have had this as a first project and those that have made a living doing it. Then go to West Sytems website and read up on their Epoxy manual. You will get a much better understanding of what you are approaching. It is well worth the time and you won't be sorry. It is essentially the bible for the industry. 8)

Brian
DON'T GLASS THE KEEL I did and after 3 years I had to remove it. Right now the boat is out in the yard upside down the keel has been removed along with 9" of the bow. I had almost 1/2 inch of glass on the keel 9 layers. Don't glass the keel. See my photos for full size and a few more.

OH MAN, WOW! Stop stop please no more, my eyes my eyes.

So people here may think it’s not a good idea? OK.

This brings me to another thought. What’s the life time of one of these boats? Poorly to well made?

How old is the oldest still usable boat? How old is the oldest boat on the list?

Brian

Oh man Pat that's awfull, I just got back from the gallery what are you going to have to do to repair it?
Brian I am no expert but they all told me about the same thing do not glass the keel and do not use the matt on the bottom, just glass with 6 ounce glass cloth and epoxy resin and that's what I am going to do. I'm just about to get to that point in a couple of weeks.

Brian.

Oh man... Now i'm sick to my stomach. that looks like a nightmare!

I have the keel off and everything that I left looks good I did have to remove about 9" off the bow. It doesn't look that bad I just have to figure out how to put it all back together. it only took about 2 hours to pull the keel off. The problem did not go the full length of the keel just the front part. I will have to put new screws through the bottom as they pulled through. the funny part of it is the boat was kept inside a garage in Texas where the heat should have dried it out.