08-16-2007, 06:01 AM
08-16-2007, 04:56 PM
I've sailed boats with natural fiber rigging and I've helped rig a reproduction Baltimore clipper this way. Trust me this is not the way to go. The moment old Capt. Nat dreamed up the idea of wire rope for standing rigging, the natural stuff was tossed over the side within a decade, literally. There's just no comparison.
But, if you like a 5/16 halyard, with a 500 pound load breaks down like this -
- 316 stainless 7x19 stretches a wee bit under 3/8",
- Dyform 316 stainless 1x19 (a special, go fast, flat wound wire) stretches at touch over 1/4",
- Sta-Set (very popular double braid) about 5 9/16",
- Endura 12 (the racers stuff) about 1 1/16",
- Regular Endura (racer/cruisers) about 3",
- Three strand (the classic, old fashion looking stuff, but spun polyester instead of hemp) about 18".
If you went real high tech, like solid rod (about 3/16" with 500 pounds) or one of the composites (about the same as rod) then bring your purse, cause the stuff cost more then your first born.
Maybe you're thinking about the stuff the USS Constitution and other classic "tall" ships were rigged with, then you'll need a bucket of tar. Yep, that's why it's black. It protected it from moisture and bugs and locked it in to position, once tensioned. The tar, of course, gets all over everything (those times were only romantic in the movies) and doesn't wash out. I always love the scene of pretty, petticoat laden women and young lads, leaning about in lovely pressed shirts, aboard those craft from the "glory days of sail" in the movies. Not a clue, but the wardrobe department had an easier time of it. In reality, everyone had black streaks all over them, hands, hair, clothing, everywhere. If you ever get a chance to board a real vessel rigged like this, the first thing they will tell you (plus the dozen or so posted signs) is don't touch the rigging, unless you're in serious need of a deep tan.
If you insist on a hemp rig, then you should size it according to working load capasity (not breaking strength). If you email me, I can provide some recommendations for the different standing rigging pieces on your boat (it takes some calulating), plus some sources for real hemp. Exspect to replace this type of rigging in 1/4 (much less without tar) of the life span of a typical stainless rig.
But, if you like a 5/16 halyard, with a 500 pound load breaks down like this -
- 316 stainless 7x19 stretches a wee bit under 3/8",
- Dyform 316 stainless 1x19 (a special, go fast, flat wound wire) stretches at touch over 1/4",
- Sta-Set (very popular double braid) about 5 9/16",
- Endura 12 (the racers stuff) about 1 1/16",
- Regular Endura (racer/cruisers) about 3",
- Three strand (the classic, old fashion looking stuff, but spun polyester instead of hemp) about 18".
If you went real high tech, like solid rod (about 3/16" with 500 pounds) or one of the composites (about the same as rod) then bring your purse, cause the stuff cost more then your first born.
Maybe you're thinking about the stuff the USS Constitution and other classic "tall" ships were rigged with, then you'll need a bucket of tar. Yep, that's why it's black. It protected it from moisture and bugs and locked it in to position, once tensioned. The tar, of course, gets all over everything (those times were only romantic in the movies) and doesn't wash out. I always love the scene of pretty, petticoat laden women and young lads, leaning about in lovely pressed shirts, aboard those craft from the "glory days of sail" in the movies. Not a clue, but the wardrobe department had an easier time of it. In reality, everyone had black streaks all over them, hands, hair, clothing, everywhere. If you ever get a chance to board a real vessel rigged like this, the first thing they will tell you (plus the dozen or so posted signs) is don't touch the rigging, unless you're in serious need of a deep tan.
If you insist on a hemp rig, then you should size it according to working load capasity (not breaking strength). If you email me, I can provide some recommendations for the different standing rigging pieces on your boat (it takes some calulating), plus some sources for real hemp. Exspect to replace this type of rigging in 1/4 (much less without tar) of the life span of a typical stainless rig.
08-16-2007, 11:07 PM
Thanks, Paul.
I realize that traditional standing rigging was tarred. I certainly don't want to go there. I wanted to try and stay with a more traditional rig, though. The Vacationer plans call for 3/16" wire rope. I figured that a reasonable substitute could be had in fiber. I also realize that the fiber could not be of the same diameter as the wire and still maintain the same SWL. For instance, it might take 7/16" fiber to be equivalent strength and/or stretch. I hadn't had a chance to look it up and just wondered if anyone had done this. I may have to settle for plastic-coated wire. At least I got a positive response on the plywood question. : )
Brett
I realize that traditional standing rigging was tarred. I certainly don't want to go there. I wanted to try and stay with a more traditional rig, though. The Vacationer plans call for 3/16" wire rope. I figured that a reasonable substitute could be had in fiber. I also realize that the fiber could not be of the same diameter as the wire and still maintain the same SWL. For instance, it might take 7/16" fiber to be equivalent strength and/or stretch. I hadn't had a chance to look it up and just wondered if anyone had done this. I may have to settle for plastic-coated wire. At least I got a positive response on the plywood question. : )
Brett
08-17-2007, 12:48 AM
Wire, just like rope, is dependant on two things to be effective as standing rigging - construction and materials. There are a few basic construction types in stainless wire, 7 x 19 (7 strands of 19 wires each), which is quite flexible and used on rigs that will need to come down often (trailer sailors) or will need to move over sheaves (halyards, etc.) and 1 x 19 (a single strand of 19 wires) which is stiff and used on rigging components that don't move. There is also a 7 x 7 wire (7 strands of 7 wires each) that is generally only available in 302/304 stainless, there for much less suitable for use in salt water and considerably less strong as 7 x 19 or 1 x 19. Vinyl coated wire is 7 x 7 and typically used in life lines. It's not recommended for rigging wire and the vinyl cover will trap moisture against the wire, plus prevent air from getting to the wire, both of which will cause it to rust. Also conventional hanks used for the headsails will cut it up in short order. A lot of folks have used vinyl covered wire, but I couldn't personally recommend it for any rigging application.
Galvanized wire has been used by a few builders. Galvanized wire stretches considerably more then stainless, but if of similar construction is stronger.
3/16" 7 x 19 stainless wire has a breaking strength of around 4,000 pounds if memory serves. 1 x 19 is about 20% stronger. 7 x 7 I haven't a clue without looking it up. This means you'd need a 1/2" rope if you used the traditional looking three strand of conventional construction (spun polyester), or you could down size to 3/8" if you used New England Rope's "Classic Filament Three-Strand Polyester", which has a special construction making it much less stretchy then other three strands. If you used Sta-Set double braid, again you'd need 3/8", if you used regular Endura, 1/4" will work. 3/8" three strand (the New England stuff) would look cool and I'll bet it's available in black too, if you wanted to go for the real look. Of course you'll have to have the dead eyes too.
All this talk about stretch is an important factor in standing rigging. Stretch will prevent you from having a taunt, reasonably straight headsail luff, which is mandatory for reasonable windward ability. If you look at pictures of classic yachts from the early part of the 20th and late part of the 19th centuries, the headsail luffs sag noticeably. They used galvanized wire. Combine substantial luff sag and the scalloped luff edge from piston hanks and windward performance suffers considerably. What's this all mean? Your boat will have to travel further and tack more frequently then a stainless rig on an identical boat, to get to the same destination. How much more? Maybe 20%, possibly more. In an afternoon sail you could easily put 40 miles under the keel. The other boat could do 50 if the course was all to windward.
I usually specify galvanized wire for working craft I design. I'm going for the strength, reparability (which can be done while at sea), inspection issues and the flexibility issue isn't as big a concern on a work boat. On pleasure craft, I always suggest stainless, 304 in fresh water only, with 316 or 316L preferred, especially in salt water (mandatory). Folks out for an afternoon sail usually want their boat to look and perform as well as the design will permit, buying things to make life aboard easier and possibly enhance performance. I usually compare it to sails. Would you install baggy, stretched out sails or would you hoist a nice cut, sweet setting, set of sails?
Galvanized wire has been used by a few builders. Galvanized wire stretches considerably more then stainless, but if of similar construction is stronger.
3/16" 7 x 19 stainless wire has a breaking strength of around 4,000 pounds if memory serves. 1 x 19 is about 20% stronger. 7 x 7 I haven't a clue without looking it up. This means you'd need a 1/2" rope if you used the traditional looking three strand of conventional construction (spun polyester), or you could down size to 3/8" if you used New England Rope's "Classic Filament Three-Strand Polyester", which has a special construction making it much less stretchy then other three strands. If you used Sta-Set double braid, again you'd need 3/8", if you used regular Endura, 1/4" will work. 3/8" three strand (the New England stuff) would look cool and I'll bet it's available in black too, if you wanted to go for the real look. Of course you'll have to have the dead eyes too.
All this talk about stretch is an important factor in standing rigging. Stretch will prevent you from having a taunt, reasonably straight headsail luff, which is mandatory for reasonable windward ability. If you look at pictures of classic yachts from the early part of the 20th and late part of the 19th centuries, the headsail luffs sag noticeably. They used galvanized wire. Combine substantial luff sag and the scalloped luff edge from piston hanks and windward performance suffers considerably. What's this all mean? Your boat will have to travel further and tack more frequently then a stainless rig on an identical boat, to get to the same destination. How much more? Maybe 20%, possibly more. In an afternoon sail you could easily put 40 miles under the keel. The other boat could do 50 if the course was all to windward.
I usually specify galvanized wire for working craft I design. I'm going for the strength, reparability (which can be done while at sea), inspection issues and the flexibility issue isn't as big a concern on a work boat. On pleasure craft, I always suggest stainless, 304 in fresh water only, with 316 or 316L preferred, especially in salt water (mandatory). Folks out for an afternoon sail usually want their boat to look and perform as well as the design will permit, buying things to make life aboard easier and possibly enhance performance. I usually compare it to sails. Would you install baggy, stretched out sails or would you hoist a nice cut, sweet setting, set of sails?
08-17-2007, 10:37 AM
Well, further research yielded a couple of possibilities. Samson Ropes makes a 12-strand single braid called Amsteel that has comparable strength to wire rope. Not quite traditional, but maybe acceptable. NE ropes spun polyester 3-strand is also a possibility and both are available in black. Deadeyes would be mandatory for a period boat. Arrrrh!
As I see it, stretch is somewhat a factor of load percentage. So the trick would be to find the balance between load factor, based on rope size and acceptable stretch. I agree that "the look" would be for naught if the set were sloppy. After all, for me at least, performance is the thing, but I want her to look good too.
Brett
As I see it, stretch is somewhat a factor of load percentage. So the trick would be to find the balance between load factor, based on rope size and acceptable stretch. I agree that "the look" would be for naught if the set were sloppy. After all, for me at least, performance is the thing, but I want her to look good too.
Brett
08-17-2007, 12:23 PM
Brett, I'll bet a pint of your favorite grog by the time you are ready to rig that boat rope rigging will be the last thing on your mind. Stop having delusions and GO MAKE SOME SAWDUST! :lol: :lol:
The beatings will continue until your senses are regained.
hock:
The beatings will continue until your senses are regained.
hock:09-03-2007, 07:48 PM
Angie,
Point taken. I am still working on making space and procuring lumber so I decided to try some of my WA ideas in 1" scale. It has been a fantastic learning experience. Now I can't wait to start on the real thing. I found a few things confusing on the plans and wasted a couple of 75 cent sheets of scale plywood. Better than $40 sheets of the real thing.
Brett
Point taken. I am still working on making space and procuring lumber so I decided to try some of my WA ideas in 1" scale. It has been a fantastic learning experience. Now I can't wait to start on the real thing. I found a few things confusing on the plans and wasted a couple of 75 cent sheets of scale plywood. Better than $40 sheets of the real thing.
Brett
09-03-2007, 08:43 PM
Brett,
I've helped more than a few novice builders re-rig their boats after trying to use rope instead of wire for standing rigging. After fighting it on every outing and never being able to tune the rigging and have it stay that way between tacks and varying wind conditions, I can say with a great deal of experience as has Paul, that you will be very sorry if you choose to go that course. Even with much more expensive rope than wire. If you want dead eyes, then so be it. You can have your rope there and it will be OK and very traditional. But it too will stretch, more and more on every outing, just a little at a time but it will stretch. Then get it good and wet and it will stretch some more only a greater amount.
As designed, the rigging works and can be tuned to a relatively fine degree and expect that the next time you go out it will be the same or nearly so and you can expect that it will be reliable. Just don't expect it to last forever. It will need to be replaced as well. Just not as often as rope and every time you put a new piece of rope inplace, you will go thru the same aggrivation and frustration about not being able to get a good set on your sails. For the first few times out, it may not make a difference because you won't know what a difference it would make. But when you do use wire and adjust it and feel the difference in being able to sail as it should. You will say "to __ll with traditional", I want to have a boat that I can sail. And believe me, this isn't really a traditional boat in any way shape or form. It only has some classic looking lines about it. It is what it is and a moderately good performing boat if it is rigged and handled well. If it is performance you are after, then don't even think about rope for standing rigging. A whole lot of fun and great for building some experience in a small boat that looks great. But in my experience, don't change that which works and works well. Let your imagination and desire go into trimming it out and your finish work. You will have a lot more enjoyment out of it. Only after you have gotten some really good time on it and have gotten used to how it handles in a wide variety of conditions, is it time to consider rigging changes. You will know better what you my want to do and will not waste time and money on things that don't work.
But it is always your choice and your boat. Just my 2 cents worth. Get on to building.
I've helped more than a few novice builders re-rig their boats after trying to use rope instead of wire for standing rigging. After fighting it on every outing and never being able to tune the rigging and have it stay that way between tacks and varying wind conditions, I can say with a great deal of experience as has Paul, that you will be very sorry if you choose to go that course. Even with much more expensive rope than wire. If you want dead eyes, then so be it. You can have your rope there and it will be OK and very traditional. But it too will stretch, more and more on every outing, just a little at a time but it will stretch. Then get it good and wet and it will stretch some more only a greater amount.
As designed, the rigging works and can be tuned to a relatively fine degree and expect that the next time you go out it will be the same or nearly so and you can expect that it will be reliable. Just don't expect it to last forever. It will need to be replaced as well. Just not as often as rope and every time you put a new piece of rope inplace, you will go thru the same aggrivation and frustration about not being able to get a good set on your sails. For the first few times out, it may not make a difference because you won't know what a difference it would make. But when you do use wire and adjust it and feel the difference in being able to sail as it should. You will say "to __ll with traditional", I want to have a boat that I can sail. And believe me, this isn't really a traditional boat in any way shape or form. It only has some classic looking lines about it. It is what it is and a moderately good performing boat if it is rigged and handled well. If it is performance you are after, then don't even think about rope for standing rigging. A whole lot of fun and great for building some experience in a small boat that looks great. But in my experience, don't change that which works and works well. Let your imagination and desire go into trimming it out and your finish work. You will have a lot more enjoyment out of it. Only after you have gotten some really good time on it and have gotten used to how it handles in a wide variety of conditions, is it time to consider rigging changes. You will know better what you my want to do and will not waste time and money on things that don't work.
But it is always your choice and your boat. Just my 2 cents worth. Get on to building.
09-04-2007, 05:58 PM
The transformation from rope to "wire rope" (as it was called in the late 1800's) was literally over night. Once sailors realized they didn't have to spend an hour or more into each cruise, re-tuning the stretched out rope rigging and how much farther into the wind they could point (less luff sag), rope was done, for standing rigging. This and turnbuckles (rigging screws they called them back then) which replaced deadeyes where two major inventions (same brilliant designer of course) swept through the yachting community like a fire, only because of the performance and handiness of the things. In the long run, it's also cheaper, as you can carry your turnbuckles and wire so much longer then the other stuff, that you have replaced the rope rigging a number of times over, before the wire needs to be replaced.